Is your belief in God, entirely dependent upon

[Elijah John]

Is your belief in God entirely dependent upon your belief that Jesus himself is God, the 2nd person of the Trinity?

If the arguments of skeptics here on these boards, or the arguments of Historical Jesus Scholars such as Bart Ehrmann or John Dominic Crossan, or even the arguments of Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims or Jews suddenly clicked in your mind, with a light-bulb-"aha" realization that Jesus is not God, never claimed to be God, and none of his contemporaries every called him "God", what would you do?

Would you retain your general belief in God, as Father? Would you join another religion such as Islam or Judaism? Would you attempt to salvage what you can of Chrisitanity in a unitarian (small "u" not necessarily UU) fashion?

Or would that discovery cause you to become an atheist or an agnostic?

[JehovahsWitness]

REVELATION 22:1

God the Father sits on His throne in heaven (1 Ki 22:19; Ps 11:4; 47:8). Jesus is on the same throne, too (Rev ... 22:1) .

Emphasis MINE

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REVELATION 22:1- New Jerusalem Bible 


Then the angel showed me the river of life, rising from the throne of God and of the Lamb and flowing crystal-clear.

Revelation 22:1 verse does not speak of Jesus as sitting {quote} "on the same throne" as his Father, indeed the verb "to sit" is not mentoned here at all. Revelation 22:1 mentions a river flowing from "the throne of God and of the lamb". This can be read in two ways, firstly that at the the source of the river there are two things #1 "the throne of God and #2 (the second thing) The lamb. Alternatively this can be read that there is one throne, called or designated "The throne of God and of the Lamb" indicating that the throne in question belongs to them both in some way.



Could this latter interpretation be used to support the idea that Christ is part of a truine God?

• The very fact that the verse implies the throne belonging to God "and" the lamb is indicative that both are not God. Further, if something is shared or belongs to more than one individual it is usually not presented as proof the two are literally one entity. For example a husband and wife may have joint ownership of the family car, does that mean they one couldn't be older than the other or that they are not different in strength or capacities?

CONCLUSION Presenting Revelation 22:1 as a text to support the idea that Jesus and Yahweh (Jehovah) are literally the same God, is illogical and contextually problematic.

FURTHER READING

SFBT Debunking so called trinity "proof" texts, one scripture at a time
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... ex_15.html

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 71 by JehovahsWitness]

Well, feel free to keep posting your take on things, however, I will re post parts of my last post . .


. . . people come to things with pre conceptions, false information, lack of knowledge of language, language usage, history, culture, lack of knowledge of the Bible as a whole, human error, etc.

This is why there are over thousands of different Christian denominations? Heck, even people in the same time and culture today speaking the same language could all read the same thing and come to all different conclusions. It is amazing to me that you don’t recognize that. Christ left us His Church to help us. We aren’t alone.

You simply don’t get it. Your church left Christ’s Church long ago and are trying to make a go of it on their own, but please ask yourself by whose authority do they now act? Who gave them the authority to start their own church in the first place? How are differences or disagreements handled now? What do you make of how your church has changed its teachings even in the small number of years of its existence? If they were wrong then, how can you be sure they are right now? Please think about these things.

[JehovahsWitness]

REVELATION 22:3

God the Father sits on His throne in heaven (1 Ki 22:19; Ps 11:4; 47:8). Jesus is on the same throne, too (Rev ... 22:3) .

Emphasis MINE

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REVELATION 22:3- New Jerusalem Bible 

The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city; his servants will worship him

Does verse 3 of Revelation chapter 22 not indicate that the faithful will worship Jesus, something only to be offered to Almighty God?

• Revelation 22:3 verse does not speak of Jesus as sitting {quote} "on the same throne" as his Father, indeed the verb "to sit" is not mentoned here at all. The verse does refer to worship or "sacred service", but actually only says they will worship "him"; which of the two individuals hitherto mentioned ("God" or "the lamb") is not specified.
  
  It seems reasonable to conclude however that their worship is directed to YAHWEH God rather than to Jesus. Why can we thus conclude? Note the next verse Revelation 22:5 " And night will be abolished; they will not need lamplight or sunlight, because the Lord God will be shining on them" (JB). This is a direct reference to Isaiah 60:19 which reads "No more will the sun give you daylight, nor moonlight shine on you, but Yahweh will be your everlasting light, your God will be your splendour."

CONCLUSION While Revelation 22:3 is somewhat ambiguous it does not specifically say the faithful will worship Jesus; indeed the context indicates they will worship the one Jesus said is to be worshipped, namely the Father alone.

Revelation 22:3 does NOT support the teaching of the trinity.

RELATED POSTS


Is Jesus subservient to Jehovah (Onewithhim)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 775#866775

1 COR 11:3 The resurrected Christ presently INFERIOR to the Father? (tigger)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 337#864337

Should both JEHOVAH and the Son Jesus be worshipped? Rev 5:13
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 020#864020

[JehovahsWitness]

REVELATION 7:15-17

God the Father sits on His throne in heaven (1 Ki 22:19; Ps 11:4; 47:8). Jesus is on the same throne, too (Rev 7:17; 22:1, 3).

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REVELATION  7:15-17 - Jerusalem Bible

...they are standing in front of God's throne and serving him day and night in his sanctuary; and the One who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. They will never hunger or thirst again; sun and scorching wind will never plague them,  because the Lamb who is at the heart of the throne will be their shepherd and will guide them to springs of living water; and God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 7 verse 17 does not speak of Jesus as sitting {quote} "on the same throne" it depicts God on the throne and "the lamb" (Christ) being {quote} " at the heart of the throne". What does this mean? And can one justifiably use this expression to suggest Jesus is co-equal, co-eternal with the Father (YAHWEH /Jehovah)?

The Greek word translated into "heart" in the Jerusalem Bible is the preposition “anameson� meaning “in the middle of,� or “midst" or "center"; so at the center or the heart of the throne (on which God sits) is Christ. Thrones are often used in the bible to represent ruling authority or sovereignty, so Revelation 7:17 could well be interpreted to mean that Jesus plays a central or essential role in the the administration or the expression of God's sovereignty.

Regardless of how one interprets being in "the heart of the throne [of God]", it is evident that two individuals are here depicted, only one of whom are identified as being God. Thus to use this verse as support the teaching Jesus is himself God requires a leap in logic unsupported by the content.



JW

[RightReason]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Regardless of how one interprets being in "the heart of the throne [of God]", it is evident that two individuals are here depicted, only one of whom are identified as being God. Thus to use this verse as support the teaching Jesus is himself God requires a leap in logic unsupported by the content.

You’re still at this? First, it should be evident 2 individuals are depicted because Jesus, the son, is a different person than God, the Father, though they are the same being – we’ve been thru this. To me your argument is equivalent to saying, “Well, you are saying Jesus walked on water, however, it is impossible to walk on water, therefore it is a leap in logic to believe He actually walked on water. In other words, I don’t have time for this. If you don’t want to believe with God all things are possible or don’t want to believe it is more likely Christendom got it right and Chuck – almost 20 centuries later did not, there really is going to be nothing to convince you. Your JW opinion pieces simply hold no weight and why should they? You still have been unable to answer that.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Continued from post # 74 by JehovahsWitness]


... in the heart of the throne

en meso tou thronou : Rev. 5:6


Again we see the four living creatures in the "heart" ( midst, center) of the throne, exactly the same expression used for the Lamb is for the elders. The 24 elders, then, must also be in the "midst" of the throne with Jesus. So are we to conclude that the 24 elders are God too!

JW



CATHOLIC RESOURCES


Vatican website (by theme)
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/ponti ... oc_en.html

Alphabetical Word search
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... ndex/h.htm

[otseng]

As usual, you miss it.

As usual, you simply show you know very little about my faith.

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[JehovahsWitness]

PHILIPIANS 2:10-11

God the Father stated, “To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear� (Is 45:23). The same exact description is also applied to Jesus (Phil 2:10-11).

JERUSALEM BIBLE :



All shall bend the knee to me, by me every tongue shall swear - Isaiah 45:23 JB

And for this God raised him high, [ ...] so that all beings[...] should bend the knee at the name of Jesus and that every tongue should acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord, to the glory of God the Father. - Philipians 2:10-11JB

• While the two passages contain elements which are the same, notably the "bending of the knee", there are notable differences between the two. In Isaiah, we hear God predict that " all shall swear by me" so all oaths will be taken in His name, deferring to God as the authority for the oath. Paul does not have people swearing "by Jesus" but acknowledging Jesus ie recognising Jesus' given position. Other translations use the terms "proclaim", "confess". (Interestingly doing so is presented with the final result of bringing glory, not to Jesus but to the Father.)

BENDING THE KNEE(S)

QUESTION Does the act of "bending the knee" before someone or something mean acknowledging that one as being Almighty God?

• The act of bending at least one knee to the ground has, from early times, been a gesture of deep respect for a superior. The gesture itself is not an acknowledgement that the superior has to be, or is equal to, Almighty God. It was not unusual in binle times for people to bend (Hebrew kara) or kneel before kings, dignitaries or Prohets. For example King Ahaziah knelt before Elijahh (2Ki 1:13, 14). Obviously then the act itself is not generally viewed as being something that exclusively recognises the object as Almighty God.

CONCLUSION Biblically, the act of bending one's knee to someone is an acknowledgement of that one's superior position and is not something reserved exclusively for YHWH (Jehovah). That the bible prophecys that all beings will bend the knee both to God and his son is not proof that Christ is equal to his Father much less that both are Almight and Trinitarian in nature.

* A long standing Catholic tradition was to " bend the kneel" (genuflect) to persons in religious authority, such as their Bishops and Popes.





JW


RELATED POSTS

What does it mean for "every knee to bow"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 695#872695

[JehovahsWitness]

Jesus speaks about historical events described as being done by God the Father in the Old Testament. He casually applies them to Himself (what might be called “the Divine 'I'�)

Can you provide an example of this? Matthew 23:34, 37 (which you quoted) is a prophecy uttered by Jesus himself upon his own first century generation projecting into the future.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

2 PETER 1:1 and ...TITUS 2:13

2 Peter 1:1 . . . our God and Savior Jesus Christ ... St. Paul uses the same phrase in Titus 2:13 as well.

While some bible translations render the verses in a way that suggests they refer to one individual, the CATHOLIC bibles below clarify matters by rendering the verses as follows...

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NEW AMERICAN BIBLE (REVISED)
..through knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. - 2 Peter 1:1

DOUAY-RHEIMS 
Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ  -Titus 2:13

The original Greek of 2 Peter 1:1

δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆ�ος Ἰησοῦ Χ�ιστοῦ

literally reads ...

... of the GOD (of us) and of Saviour Jesus Christ

..leading some to conclude that the writer is designating Jesus as God but Moulton's Grammar of New Testament Greek explains that where there are several nouns connected by "kai" (and) "The art[icle] may be carried over from the first noun to the other(s)" - p. 181, Vol. 3, 1963. Indeed this is the case in many similar constructions. We do a similar thing in English when we refer to "King and country"; it is understood, even without saying King and the country that the country is not the king.

CONCLUSION It is grammatically dubious to say the least to insist that Peter and Paul (the writer of Titus) were suggesting Jesus was God in the above passages. Two indi visuals are spoken of only one of which is being revered to as God.

CATHOLIC BIBLES AVAILABLE ONLINE

New American Bible (Revised)
http://www.usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/index.cfm

Douay-Rheims Online
http://www.drbo.org

New Jerusalem Bible
https://www.catholic.org/bible/books_bible.php

Further Reading
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... -rule.html