And a final challenge for today.

[Elijah John]

And a third and final challenge for today. Prove from the "Old" Testament/Hebrew Bible that the Messiah was was supposed to have a "2nd coming", in effect two advents.

Jews believe the doctrine was invented because Jesus failed to usher-in the Messianic age the first time around, and cite that as proof that he is not the Messiah.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Remind me what do the jews expect from the Messiah?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Remind me what do the jews expect from the Messiah?

Thanks for the question. According to the "idiots Guides" book on Judaism (and I have read similar things in other books from Jewish authors), the Jewish expectation for the Messiah is summarized in this statement:

The Mashiach isn't a divine figure with extraordinary abilities, but a Jewish ruler who will rule when God brings a qualitative change to the world, instituting universal peace, harmony and prosperity.

I have also read that the Messiah will be an actual and restorative King of Israel (like King David) who will preside over this change for universal good in the world, under Israel's leadership.

Not a "sacrifice for sin" nor "God incarnate into a human being". On the contrary, Judaism's greatest sage Maimonides teaches that God is absolutely singular (not "Triune"), Spirit and incorpreal (not incarnated into a flesh and blood human being).

Anyway, one of the main reasons Judaism rejects Jesus as Messiah is because he failed to bring about these positive changes or rule Israel at all, when he was here on earth. And so the doctrine of the "2nd coming" was invented by Christians, and the concept of the Messiah was redefined as a divne, incarnate spiritual savior, because Jesus did not fulfill Messianic expectation the "first time around".

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 3 by Elijah John]

Why must we believe this statement: The Mashiach isn't a divine figure with extraordinary abilities, but a Jewish ruler who will rule when God brings a qualitative change to the world, instituting universal peace, harmony and prosperity.

It already seems to be loaded against Jesus and is probably a post-Christian statement.

Have you heard that there are two Messiahs in Judaism? Do you think there is?

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 3 by Elijah John]

Please refer to my "Bastard Kings of Israel" thread addressing the possible politics behind The Mashiach isn't a divine figure with extraordinary abilities, but a Jewish ruler who will rule when God brings a qualitative change to the world, instituting universal peace, harmony and prosperity.

And the politics behind I have also read that the Messiah will be an actual and restorative King of Israel (like King David) who will preside over this change for universal good in the world, under Israel's leadership.

The Jesus character failed as a messiah in bringing immediate earthly change, by summoning "God" and the armies of angels to exterminate non-believers.

But he IS expected to do this next time around ...?

I suggest that is what he was expected to do the first time around ...

And Christian writings are political spin on the failure of the Jesus character.

"Under Israel's leadership" is worthy of very careful consideration ....

Seems awfully like political intent to me

I suggest many people have got the details of Christianity very, very wrong.

(Please note that I am questioning the interpretation of the writings and NOT asking for proof of origin.)

[brianbbs67]

What if the Isrealite views of the Messiah were created(by humans), also?

[StuartJ]

What if the Isrealite views of the Messiah were created(by humans), also?

OMG ... what if they weren't ...?!!!

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 3 by Elijah John]

Please refer to my "Bastard Kings of Israel" thread addressing the possible politics behind The Mashiach isn't a divine figure with extraordinary abilities, but a Jewish ruler who will rule when God brings a qualitative change to the world, instituting universal peace, harmony and prosperity.

And the politics behind I have also read that the Messiah will be an actual and restorative King of Israel (like King David) who will preside over this change for universal good in the world, under Israel's leadership.

The Jesus character failed as a messiah in bringing immediate earthly change, by summoning "God" and the armies of angels to exterminate non-believers.

But he IS expected to do this next time around ...?

I suggest that is what he was expected to do the first time around ...

And Christian writings are political spin on the failure of the Jesus character.

"Under Israel's leadership" is worthy of very careful consideration ....

Seems awfully like political intent to me

I suggest many people have got the details of Christianity very, very wrong.

(Please note that I am questioning the interpretation of the writings and NOT asking for proof of origin.)

Sounds like a premise which Reza Aslan shares in his book "Zealot". Jesus too, wanted an immediate intervention from God to cast off the Romans, and establish Israel's rule among the nations, presumably with Jesus at the helm.

I believe the Jewish understanding (invention of the concept) of Messiah was political, but with the added ingredient of awaited Divine intervention in order to make it happen and install the Messiah as King..

I doubt Jews would deny this. It is Christians who "spiritualized" and re-invented the concept, and added the notion of the "2nd coming".

I'll check out your topic.

[marco]

And a third and final challenge for today. Prove from the "Old" Testament/Hebrew Bible that the Messiah was was supposed to have a "2nd coming", in effect two advents.

Jews believe the doctrine was invented because Jesus failed to usher-in the Messianic age the first time around, and cite that as proof that he is not the Messiah.

It would seem that everything was done to make Christ's every event comply with this or that prophecy. The big problem was that when Christ arrived, what could he do? The answer is nothing - except preach. So a PROMISE had to be made that he'd be back next Wednesday, which of course never happened. One would expect all the disappointed followers to fall away? NO, they were dead and their successors invented a new idea: he would come in 1000 years time - oops, 2000 - oops, well sometime anyway. God knows when!