For which Jehovah should we witness?

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
dakoski
Scholar
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:44 pm
Location: UK

For which Jehovah should we witness?

Post #1

Post by dakoski »

Jesus claimed to be the sent one from Jehovah (i.e. the angel of Jehovah as angel means ‘sent one’) e.g. Matt 10:40, 15:24, 21:37; Mark 9:37, 12:6; Luke 4:18, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16.; John 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5;38, 6:38, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16 etc. He also claimed to be the unique revelation of Jehovah: ‘No one knows the Father but the Son and those to whom he chooses to reveal him.’ (Matt 11:27)

The angel of Jehovah is a central figure throughout the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g. Genesis chapters 16, 18-19, 21, 24, 28, 31, 48; Exodus 3, 23, 24, 28, 31, 32, 33-34; Numbers 22; Judges 2, 5, 6, 13 etc.). He is the unique revelation of Jehovah, both referred to as Jehovah but also distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens who no one may see and live. There are a vast number of references where the angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah so there’s only space for a few key examples but we can work through as many as you wish:

1) Gen 18-19.
18:1 makes clear Jehovah appears to Abraham. 19:1 clarifies that of the three people who visit Abraham two of these were angels who are then sent to Sodom. The person left with Abraham continues to be addressed as Jehovah (e.g. 18:20, 22, 26) by Abraham and the narrator. Then the angel of Jehovah leaves Abraham (18:33) and goes to Sodom to destroy the city: "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." (Gen 19:23-24)

Of course the word translated Lord here is Jehovah. Even more interesting is that the person who speaks with Abraham and who goes down to Sodom is addressed as Jehovah and is distinguished from another person in the heavens also addressed as Jehovah. This is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations

2) Exodus 33. This passage similarly distinguishes between a person addressed as Jehovah who spoke regularly with Moses face to face (v11) and another person also addressed as Jehovah who no one may see face to face and live (v20). Again this is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations.

Questions for debate:
1) Do you think Jesus was claiming to be the angel of Jehovah mentioned in the Old Testament?

2) Do you agree that the angel of Jehovah was referred to as Jehovah, yet distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens? If not, what do you think these passages are teaching?

3) What is the significance of the angel of Jehovah being addressed as Jehovah:

a) Does it just reflect that the angel of Jehovah as ambassador was speaking on behalf of Jehovah but was not actually Jehovah? If this was common practice, wouldn’t we expect to see many examples of other ambassadors of Jehovah being referred to as Jehovah? Was any other angel, prophet, or messenger referred to as Jehovah?

b) Does it reflect that Jehovah is not a single person God? But rather that Jehovah in the heavens has always sent another person, who equally bears the divine name Jehovah, as a mediator with humanity?

dakoski
Scholar
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:44 pm
Location: UK

Re: For which Jehovah should we witness?

Post #71

Post by dakoski »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 68 by dakoski]

So you agree that the angel of Jehovah is a created being?
I said no I don't agree with that.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 15007
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 110 times
Contact:

Re: For which Jehovah should we witness?

Post #72

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 71 by dakoski]

But you also said....
dakoski wrote: My view is that if you can show something from Scripture I'll agree ...


Yours, O Jehovah, are the greatness and the mightiness and the beauty and the splendor and the majesty, for everything in the heavens and on the earth is yours" -1 Chronicles 29:11

“Look, to Jehovah your God belong the heavens, even the heavens of the heavens, and the earth with all that is in it� - Deuteronomy 10:13

Since everything in the heavens belongs to Jehovah including the angels, anyone identified as "an angel" must by definition belong to Jehovah.




JW


#1 Possession: Obviously the angel of Jehovah is not JEHOVAH because ... "of" means ownership or possession ( see Zech 1:11) . For example "the husband of Sarah", would be "the husband that belongs to Sarah" ie the husband that she has. The expression itself indicates Sarah is a different individual to "the husband". Thus "the angel OF Jehovah" is distinct person, separate and different from the individual ALMIGHTY GOD (JEHOVAH) to which he " belongs".
  • - Sarah is not her husband, her husband is not Sarah.
    - Almighty God is not his "angel", his angel is not Almighty God".
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

dakoski
Scholar
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:44 pm
Location: UK

Re: For which Jehovah should we witness?

Post #73

Post by dakoski »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 71 by dakoski]

But you also said....
dakoski wrote: My view is that if you can show something from Scripture I'll agree ...


Yours, O Jehovah, are the greatness and the mightiness and the beauty and the splendor and the majesty, for everything in the heavens and on the earth is yours" -1 Chronicles 29:11

“Look, to Jehovah your God belong the heavens, even the heavens of the heavens, and the earth with all that is in it� - Deuteronomy 10:13

Since everything in the heavens belongs to Jehovah including the angels, anyone identified as "an angel" must by definition belong to Jehovah.
I've already answered this several posts ago:
Since the verse is about everything belonging to Jehovah - then since the angel of Jehovah is clearly addressed as Jehovah in Scripture along with Jehovah in the heavens- then I don't see how this makes your case.
Its another case of you applying circular reasoning. I'm going to take a break as have other things to do.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 15007
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 110 times
Contact:

Re: For which Jehovah should we witness?

Post #74

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 73 by dakoski]

No *I* used a scripture which is not the one one under contention. YOU are attempting to use the scripture under contention to prove the contention. In short you are trying to prove the meaning of Gen 18:1 by presenting your interpretation of Genesis 18:1 (which is circular). I am reasoning on what the bible says elsewhere to shed light on the point of contention.

I dismiss your argument for the above reason. Would you like to present another scripture?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 15007
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 110 times
Contact:

Re: For which Jehovah should we witness?

Post #75

Post by JehovahsWitness »

dakoski wrote: I'm going to take a break as have other things to do.

That's fine. I've enjoyed talking to you. We've covered a lot of ground so I'll post a full summary of my position below....

Have an excellent day,

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 15007
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 110 times
Contact:

Re: For which Jehovah should we witness?

Post #76

Post by JehovahsWitness »

I do appreciatebuou passion and respect for scripture.

In think that is a good thing.



Have a nice s evening

JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:38 am, edited 17 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

dakoski
Scholar
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:44 pm
Location: UK

Re: For which Jehovah should we witness?

Post #77

Post by dakoski »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]
No *I* used a scripture which is not the one one under contention. YOU are attempting to use the scripture under contention to prove the contention.

I dismiss your argument. Would you like to present another scripture?
We're clearly operating from very different definitions of circular reasoning. In my view, Scripture sits in authority over your opinions and mine. So when I claim that the Bible refers to the angel of Jehovah as Jehovah - then show you those verses where it does in fact state that - that's not circular reasoning. Its using an authority greater than you or I to settle our disagreement. So I can only infer you don't accept that authority. If that's the case there's no place the conversation can go only your opinion against mine - which seems to me a waste of time.

In your case, you are taking a verse about all creation belonging to Jehovah to claim the angel of Jehovah is created and therefore is not Jehovah. That presupposes Jehovah means the Father and not the Son (i.e. the angel of Jehovah). Since you don't justify this assumption from Scripture and just assert it this is circular reasoning. Its simply stating:

1) the Father is Jehovah, the angel of Jehovah is not Jehovah

2) Scripture says all the earth was created and belongs to Jehovah

3) Therefore the angel of Jehovah is created and belongs to Jehovah

4) Therefore the angel of Jehovah is not Jehovah

The scriptures I previously cited show that assumption 1) is a false assumption since both Jehovah in the heavens and the angel of Jehovah are referred to as Jehovah. So I'm using Scripture to challenge your assumption.

dakoski
Scholar
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:44 pm
Location: UK

Re: For which Jehovah should we witness?

Post #78

Post by dakoski »

JehovahsWitness wrote: QUESTION Does Genesis 18:1 indicate there are two JEHOVAHS?


  • #1 Possession: Obviously the angel of Jehovah is not JEHOVAH because ... "of" means ownership or possession ( see Zech 1:11) . For example "the husband of Sarah", would be "the husband that belongs to Sarah" ie the husband that she has. The expression itself indicates Sarah is a different individual to "the husband". Thus "the angel OF Jehovah" is distinct person, separate and different from the individual ALMIGHTY GOD (JEHOVAH) to which he " belongs".
    • - Sarah is not her husband, her husband is not Sarah.
      - Almighty God is not his "angel", his angel is not Almighty God".
    QUESTION Does "the angel of Jehovah" Belong to Jehovah?


    Yours, O Jehovah, are the greatness and the mightiness and the beauty and the splendor and the majesty, for everything in the heavens and on the earth is yours" -1 Chronicles 29:11

    “Look, to Jehovah your God belong the heavens, even the heavens of the heavens, and the earth with all that is in it� - Deuteronomy 10:13
    #2 Angel: Jehovah is never refered to as an angel. indeed the bible implies Jehovah CREATED the angels since he created " all things" ( compare Job 38:7; Rev 4:11) so since the angel of Jehovah is... an angel, and Jehovah created all the angels then the angel of Jehovah by definition of being "an angel" is a created being. Since Jehoavh isn't a created being they cannot both lierally be JEHOVAH nor can the angel be Almighty God (who is by definition uncreated)

    #3 messenger: An angel is a messenger (see Heb 1:14). Angel of Jehovah means the messenger of Jehovah. The designation "Angel of Jehovah" itself thus denotes two separate individuals one sent with a message ( the "sendee") , the other "the sender". (and presumed originator of said message). If an angel is a messenger, then the sender cannot be described as AN ANGEL. There is no passage in scripture that depicts Almighty God being "sent" by anybody, to do anything.

    #4. Created: The bible indicates Jehovah CREATED the angels (compare Hebb 1:7). If an individual is described as an angel it is being implied that one is a created being. Since an omnipotent (Almighty) God cannot by definitiin be a created being he must be an "angel" cannot literally be Almighty God.

    # 5 Authority. The act of sending someone (as opposed to a mutual agreement between equala as to who should go) is by definition an exercise of authority of one or more individuals over another separate and distinct individual. One does not send oneself, one decides (or two equals can agree on a given action) but the submission to being sent is an expression that one has more authority over another ( compare Psals 91:12). Thus we have evidence to conclude form the designation alone ("angel" ie messenger ie one sent with a message) that the the sender (Jehovah) and the sender (The angel) are not equal. If one God is made up of two person's then the two persons would have to be equal. Ergo the designation "angel of Jehovah" cannot refer to Almighty God.

    6 # Representation: Refering to someone as Jehovah doesn't necessarily mean they are Jehovah ( if someone called me the queen of England does that mean I am her?) . Although on occasions individuals addressed angels as "Jehovah" , there is no biblical reason to conclude they didn't do so as an expression of their respect as to who these angels represented rather than a belief there was more than one Almighty God
1) Ok realise this is a summary of what you've previously stated, I won't repeat my response as have already addressed these previously. But if anyone is interested in following the discussion (probably no one!) my responses to these points are found by scrolling back to posts 21 and 34.

2) Just in passing, you make no reference whatsoever to Genesis 18:1 so it should be noted you are not attempting to understand the passage on its own merit.
Last edited by dakoski on Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 15007
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 110 times
Contact:

Re: For which Jehovah should we witness?

Post #79

Post by JehovahsWitness »

QUESTION Does Genesis 18:1 indicate there are two JEHOVAHS?

Any suggestion that the personal name Jehovah is the designated personal name of more than one individual person is in direct contradiction to the explicit statement in scripture found in Deuteronomy 6:4 which reads

DEUTERONOMY 6:4

Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. NWT
However there are scriptures in the bible, describing angelic visitations, where individuals are addressed as "Jehovah", for example Genesis 18:1 which reads in the NWT as follows
Afterward, Jehovah appeared to him [ Abraham] among the big trees of Mamʹre ...

QUESTION Since Jehovah told Moses no human can see Him and live, does that mean Abraham interacted with an angel that shares the divine name JEHOVAH?

When YHWH revealed himself to Moses at the burning Bush he gave no indication that the name was to be shared , on the contrary he declared

EXODUS 3:15

This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation
Notable in its absence is YHWH declaring this is OUR name. ( also See Matthew 6:9). So if God does not share his name with angels (or anyone), how can scriptures like Genesis 18:1 be explained?


ENVOYS AND PREPRESENTATIVES

Since the bible is explicit in the exclusivity if the name, it is reasonable to conclude that any such address is a reflection of being a representative or special envoy speaking for God.
To illustrate: If former Secrtary of State Hillary Clinton goes to Russia to represent President Obama, a headline might read "OBAMA seeks peace with Putin" even though Obama did not make the trip and President Putin spoke only to his representative. We might even read "America holds olive branch to Russia" but since both are countries and neither have literal hands to hold branches, the headline is impossible. We understand that REPRESENTATIVES of the people of both countries were in communication.
CONCLUSION: There is absolutely no biblical reason to conclude that when angels were addresses as "Jehovah" it was not done so in recognition that they, on those occassions represented Jehovah, rather than that they shared the same name.


RELATED POSTS

Can any angel be considered Almighty God?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 439#937439

Did Moses see God's face?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 120#825120

What does the bible mean when it says Moses spoke with God "face to face"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 375#825375

"Face" in Hebrew idiom? (tigger)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 583#825583
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 15007
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 110 times
Contact:

Re: For which Jehovah should we witness?

Post #80

Post by JehovahsWitness »

ARE THERE BIBLICAL REASONS TO CONCLUDE "AN ANGEL OF JEHOVAH" CAN BE EQUAL TO JEHOVAH HIMSELF?


Zechariah 1:11 and various other bible passages speak of "the angel of Jehovah". Some claim that one such angel actually bears the same personal name as Almighty God and suggest this one would be EQUAL to Almighty God.

But can any angel be equal to Almighty God?
  • #1 Possession: Obviously the angel of Jehovah is not JEHOVAH because ... "of" means ownership or possession ( see Zech 1:11) . For example "the husband of Sarah", would be "the husband that belongs to Sarah" ie the husband that she has. The expression itself indicates Sarah is a different individual to "the husband". Thus "the angel OF Jehovah" is distinct person, separate and different from the individual ALMIGHTY GOD (JEHOVAH) to which he " belongs".
    • - Sarah is not her husband, her husband is not Sarah.
      - Almighty God is not his "angel", his angel is not Almighty God".
    #2 Angel: Jehovah is never refered to as an angel. indeed the bible implies Jehovah CREATED the angels since he created " all things" ( compare Job 38:7; Rev 4:11) so since the angel of Jehovah is... an angel, and Jehovah created all the angels then the angel of Jehovah by definition of being "an angel" is a created being. Since Jehoavh isn't a created being they cannot both lierally be JEHOVAH nor can the angel be Almighty God (who is by definition uncreated)

    #3 messenger: An angel is a messenger (see Heb 1:14). Angel of Jehovah means the messenger of Jehovah. The designation "Angel of Jehovah" itself thus denotes two separate individuals one sent with a message ( the "sendee") , the other "the sender". (and presumed originator of said message). If an angel is a messenger, then the sender cannot be described as AN ANGEL. There is no passage in scripture that depicts Almighty God being "sent" by anybody, to do anything.

    #4. Created: The bible indicates Jehovah CREATED the angels (compare Hebb 1:7). If an individual is described as an angel it is being implied that one is a created being. Since an omnipotent (Almighty) God cannot by definitiin be a created being he must be an "angel" cannot literally be Almighty God.

    # 5 Authority. The act of sending someone (as opposed to a mutual agreement between equala as to who should go) is by definition an exercise of authority of one or more individuals over another separate and distinct individual. One does not send oneself, one decides (or two equals can agree on a given action) but the submission to being sent is an expression that one has more authority over another ( compare Psals 91:12). Thus we have evidence to conclude form the designation alone ("angel" ie messenger ie one sent with a message) that the the sender (Jehovah) and the sender (The angel) are not equal. If one God is made up of two person's then the two persons would have to be equal. Ergo the designation "angel of Jehovah" cannot refer to Almighty God.

QUESTION Does "the angel of Jehovah" Belong to Jehovah?


Yours, O Jehovah, are the greatness and the mightiness and the beauty and the splendor and the majesty, for everything in the heavens and on the earth is yours" -1 Chronicles 29:11

“Look, to Jehovah your God belong the heavens, even the heavens of the heavens, and the earth with all that is in it - Deuteronomy 10:13






RELATED POSTS
Are angels and spirits different "life forms"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 78#p846578

Can any angel be considered Almighty God?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 39#p937439

Is there reason to believe angels/spirits are invisible to humans?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 95#p846495

How many angels does the bible say there are?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 04#p962504

What do the scriptures tell us about ANGELS?
viewtopic.php?p=965482#p965482

Does God have a heavenly organisation ?
viewtopic.php?p=1023112#p1023112
Go to other posts related to ....

ANGELS , DEMONS and ...THE HEAVENLY CALLING
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:02 am, edited 6 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Post Reply