Did Christ have free will?

[brianbbs67]

Did Jesus/Yeshua/whateverhisname have free will. We see him quote" the son can only do as the father has instructed". Or was he so devoted to the father it never was an issue?

So, was he locked into the doctrine? Or could he act of his will? I can see examples of both. What do you all see?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 229 by onewithhim]

I agree with you, but I had heard arguments to the contrary and wanted to explore the subject.

[elijahpne]

[Replying to post 1 by brianbbs67]

Some seem to contend that for Jesus to prove he had free will he should have failed. And that because he succeeded in his mission then he has no free will. Doesn't that smack of circular logic?

If Jesus had no free will then his sacrifice was of no value at all. God can only accept love, let alone sacrifice, from free-thinking individuals.

Matthew 22:37 says "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and WITH ALL THY MIND". - KJV

Good day.

[twobitsworth]

Of course Jesus did not have free will. If we begin at the beginning and confirm that God the Father is All Knowing, then he knew absolutely that Jesus would do what he did. It denies the power of God to allow him to be surprised by Jesus disobeying. It was utterly impossible for Jesus to disobey.

We can look at it this way. If God knew that Jesus would disobey at any time while on earth......would God have put him there?

[brianbbs67]

Of course Jesus did not have free will. If we begin at the beginning and confirm that God the Father is All Knowing, then he knew absolutely that Jesus would do what he did. It denies the power of God to allow him to be surprised by Jesus disobeying. It was utterly impossible for Jesus to disobey.

We can look at it this way. If God knew that Jesus would disobey at any time while on earth......would God have put him there?

Jesus' prayer in the garden demonstrates his will. He wished to not do it. But, bent his will to the Father. He had his own will, but also obeyed the Father when they conflicted.

[twobitsworth]

If that is true, and God could have been disobeyed in his plan, you are among those who believe in a powerful god. Right? Not an All Powerful God.

[ttruscott]

Of course Jesus did not have free will. If we begin at the beginning and confirm that God the Father is All Knowing, then he knew absolutely that Jesus would do what he did. It denies the power of God to allow him to be surprised by Jesus disobeying. It was utterly impossible for Jesus to disobey.

Besides the fact that God can't be all knowing in the manner you suggest by the pagan Greek definition*, IF Christ did all He did in conformity with The Father's wishes by His own uncoerced free will CHOICE, the Father would know all the Son would do, no surprises, without any coercion from HIMself. Obedience by willing choice is just as obedient as not having a choice and much more a characteristic of His life and attitude: John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. He humbled Himself, He was not humbled by the Father: Philippians 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death--even death on a cross.

*Such a definition leads to absolute blasphemy against HIS character and is to be repudiated everywhere.

We can look at it this way. If God knew that Jesus would disobey at any time while on earth......would God have put him there?

Knowing His perfect commitment to the love they shared and to righteousness, the Father would know just as fully Christ's perfect ability to fulfill His work on the cross (perhaps even better) as HE would by forcing Him to obey by robotic manipulation.

You miss the mark by supposing (without proof) that only by force could Christ's work on earth be fulfilled and not by Christ's commitment to fulfilling His role perfectly.

[ttruscott]

If that is true, and God could have been disobeyed in his plan, you are among those who believe in a powerful god. Right? Not an All Powerful God.

Being all powerful only means HE can do with power anything that power can do... It has nothing to do with obedience of disobedience. Can GOD force a society of robots to do only what HE wills? Sure but what the heck would be the point of that? All powerful doesn't mean stupid, eh?

[twobitsworth]

Ttruscott, who said anything about force??? The question is whether Jesus had free will such that he could say no to God.( there would be consequences of course, but was Jesus able to disobey?)

To answer this question, we need to establish the character of God.

Lets assume for now that you believe in an All Powerful God. A million years before Calvary, did God know absolutely what Jesus would do on earth?

[brianbbs67]

If that is true, and God could have been disobeyed in his plan, you are among those who believe in a powerful god. Right? Not an All Powerful God.

God can always be disobeyed. Doesn't the whole history teach this? Christ could have disobeyed and the next would have risen. Nothing stops the Alef and Tah. He is water.

[twobitsworth]

Well, if Jesus, or any other person can disobey God at will, then God is really subordinate to his creation. Jesus, or any other person has the greater power, and will determine how things go.

Interesting view, but if true, it kind of throws the entire premise of the bible on its head. God can make all the commands and pronouncements he likes, but if the people don't like it, they will ignore him, and disobey. He is more of a figurehead, right?

My question was to those who would answer in conformity with the bible. That is, can Jesus disobey God's commands, when God could see into the future and see that Jesus would not disobey?