Civil and engaging debate on Christianity and religious issues

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:11 pm
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Does God play dice?

Like this post (1): Aetixintro
Stephen Hawking wrote:
So God does play dice with the universe. All the evidence points to him being an inveterate gambler, who throws the dice on every possible occasion.

Hawking is talking about the uncertainty principle viz., it is is not possible to exactly know both the position and momentum of a particle.

Does anyone still deny the uncertainty principle? Not sure if they do. Let's test that.

Does belief in an omniscient God contradict the uncertainty principle?
Can the uncertainty principle be true and there still be God?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:36 pm
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Re: Does God play dice?

Like this post (1): ttruscott
[Replying to post 1 by Furrowed Brow]

Quote:

Can the uncertainty principle be true and there still be God?


Sure

it's a little like you watching a good juggler, you being uncertain of where the objects are at any time, doesn't mean that he is!

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:10 pm
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Re: Does God play dice?

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Guy Threepwood wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by Furrowed Brow]

Quote:

Can the uncertainty principle be true and there still be God?


Sure

it's a little like you watching a good juggler, you being uncertain of where the objects are at any time, doesn't mean that he is!

A well practiced juggler might not know where the ball is yet trust the ball will be there when he puts his hand out. Competence does not necessarily entail conscious knowledge.

A very good juggler may still be able to juggle in the dark.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:18 pm
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Re: Does God play dice?

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Furrowed Brow wrote:

Guy Threepwood wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by Furrowed Brow]

Quote:

Can the uncertainty principle be true and there still be God?


Sure

it's a little like you watching a good juggler, you being uncertain of where the objects are at any time, doesn't mean that he is!

A well practiced juggle might not know where the ball is, but only trust that when he puts his hand out the ball will be there. Competence does not necessarily entail conscious knowledge.


So he has knowledge that cannot be observed, even by himself- as creator of those motions, he is not limited to mere observation of them, as we are.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:25 am
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Re: Does God play dice?

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[Replying to post 4 by Guy Threepwood]

Quote:
So he has knowledge ...


So who is the "he" ...?

And can you demonstrate that this "he" has knowledge ...?

Not necessarily of the position and momentum of every particle in the universe, but just any old common or Garden of Eden type knowledge at all ...

Anything ....

Quote:
as creator of those motions ...


And then tackle that one in the same way, please.

I'm the sorta guy who likes a whole lot of certainty in his life when it comes to matters of gods and their abilities.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:03 am
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Re: Does God play dice?

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[Replying to post 5 by StuartJ]

Quote:

So who is the "he" ...?


creator of everything you see around you

Quote:

And can you demonstrate that this "he" has knowledge ...?

Not necessarily of the position and momentum of every particle in the universe, but just any old common or Garden of Eden type knowledge at all ...



certainly- to create our world you need to know not only QM, but physics, chemistry, biology, computer science... inside and out!

Quote:
I'm the sorta guy who likes a whole lot of certainty in his life when it comes to matters of gods and their abilities.


Me too, how certain are you he does not exist? but that some sort of spontaneous non-creative creation device does?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:49 pm
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Re: Does God play dice?

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[Replying to post 6 by Guy Threepwood]

I should have known better than to expect a direct answer ...

Why didn't you just name your god ...?

Does your god embarrass you and you have to obfuscate ...?

All the gods have names.

Name YOUR god and then demonstrate that it was YOUR god that did the creating.

And let me remind you AGAIN that Atheists do NOT generally say that gods do not exist.

This claim is generally a Christian falsity.

It's one of the reasons I do not trust people of faith when it comes to matters of faith.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:06 pm
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Re: Does God play dice?

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StuartJ wrote:

[Replying to post 6 by Guy Threepwood]

I should have known better than to expect a direct answer ...

Why didn't you just name your god ...?

Does your god embarrass you and you have to obfuscate ...?

All the gods have names.

Name YOUR god and then demonstrate that it was YOUR god that did the creating.

And let me remind you AGAIN that Atheists do NOT generally say that gods do not exist.

This claim is generally a Christian falsity.

It's one of the reasons I do not trust people of faith when it comes to matters of faith.


If you asked me who I'm talking about, regarding the creator of the Rosetta stone-
it's the person who created it.

If I don't know his name, that does not mean we default to the stone spontaneously creating itself for no particular reason!

Similarly I think we can, as most do, deduce an intelligent creator for the world we see around us, as being less improbable than a chance occurrence.

His name is an interesting question.
What name do you give our star- Sun? Sol? Ra? also an interesting question, but not the most substantive one.

What we know of the sun is what we can deduce from it's effects, so too for God- call him what you will, but be nice! Smile



Quote:
I do not trust people of faith


That's kinda the point of faith! as a person of faith, I don't want you to trust me, I want you to find your own personal faith.

Whatever it is you believe in, as long as we all acknowledge our beliefs as such, we can all get along. The problems usually begin when people start declaring 'undeniable truth' don't you think?

Blind faith is faith which does not recognize itself

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:31 pm
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Re: Does God play dice?

Like this post (1): Tcg
[Replying to post 8 by Guy Threepwood]

Quote:
so too for God- call him what you will,


You have given "God" gender ...

You have given "God" number ...

I suggest you know perfectly well that your version of "God" - the one with gender and number - has a name ....

I find that people of faith dodge around using the name of their god ...

Because when they DO use the name of the god ...

The god looks just as mythological as every other god ...

I suspect YOUR version of "God" is one of the variations on the theme of the ethno-specific, mythological, biblical, Hallelu-Jah, Guide Me O Thou Great Jehovah version/s of "God".

Why not use the name HE has been given by the people who imagined HIM ...?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:14 am
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Re: Does God play dice?

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StuartJ wrote:

[Replying to post 8 by Guy Threepwood]

Quote:
so too for God- call him what you will,


You have given "God" gender ...

You have given "God" number ...

I suggest you know perfectly well that your version of "God" - the one with gender and number - has a name ....

I find that people of faith dodge around using the name of their god ...

Because when they DO use the name of the god ...

The god looks just as mythological as every other god ...

I suspect YOUR version of "God" is one of the variations on the theme of the ethno-specific, mythological, biblical, Hallelu-Jah, Guide Me O Thou Great Jehovah version/s of "God".

Why not use the name HE has been given by the people who imagined HIM ...?


Thanks for thinking for me! it's always easier to critique other people's beliefs when you can assign them yourself.

I can honestly say I've never used the name Jehovah., or Yahwe but again I don't really think his name is the most substantive issue!

I already called him God, upper case G, that works for me, so that would be your answer.

I also gave you the definition of that- creator of the universe. That could very well be the God of the Bible depending on interpretation- but is not limited to that. you maybe just picked the wrong person to make your argument to.

So out of curiosity, what do you believe? who/what do you think is responsible for creating the world you see around you?

no dodging! Smile

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