The Geography of the Gods

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Jagella
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The Geography of the Gods

Post #1

Post by Jagella »

One of the most basic facts of the history of religion is that all the gods people have believed in have originated in one and only one place and one and only culture. Osiris originated in Egypt and no other place. Zeus originated in Greece and no other place. And, most importantly for Christian apologetics, Yahweh originated in Israel only. Only the Jews birthed Yahweh, and all other people only became acquainted with Yahweh through the Jews and later Christians as they "exported" him making him known by telling people from other cultures about him. Prior to this human effort, nobody from any other place or culture had the faintest idea of Yahweh's existence; he was unknown to all of them.

So how do we explain this "geography of the gods" in general and the geography of Yahweh in particular? I think the phenomenon of gods originating in one culture only can be explained in at least two ways:
  • 1. All the gods except Yahweh were created by one people in one place and at one time. Yahweh as the sole exception to this rule is a real god who was never created. Nevertheless, for some unknown reason he interacted with only one people, the Jews, and he almost completely neglected all other people not bothering to reveal himself to them or intervene in their affairs. In so doing he ended up looking like all the "false" gods who like he were only known to one people at first.

    2. Yahweh is no exception to the rule of the "geography of the gods." The reason he like all other gods originated among one people and one culture and at one time is because he was invented by one people in one place at one time--just like any other god.
Question for Debate: Which of these two explanations is more reasonable and more likely to be true?

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StuartJ
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Re: The Geography of the Gods

Post #31

Post by StuartJ »

[Replying to post 29 by bluethread]
Unless they had convinced themselves of alternate realities, like rational humanism, scientific empiricism, atheistic mysticism, etc.
When someone uses the term "realities" ...

I always suspect they are referring to "imaginalities" ...

Especially in an instance like this where you have said "alternate" ...

As though the cult of the mythological ethnic deity Yahweh was in the same category of "reality" as evidence-based science.

Given the reality of the absence of evidence to the contrary, it is reasonable to posit that the Yahweh deity only entered the imaginations of humans somewhere in the geographic region of the Dead Sea.
No one EVER demonstrates that "God" exists outside their parietal cortex.

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Re: The Geography of the Gods

Post #32

Post by bluethread »

Jagella wrote:
bluethread wrote:
...Adonai was not known a YHWH prior to Moshe'. Avrahham, Yitzchak and Yocav new him as Eloheim. It was only at Moshe's insistence that He refer to Himself as YHWH, the eternal present.
You should cite your source for what you're claiming here. If it's derived from the Hebrew Bible, then we still have no evidence for Yahweh as originating among any people but the Jews or maybe some other people the Jews were in contact with.
My point is that when Moshe' asks Adonai, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?�(Ex. 3:13), why would Moshe' ask that, if YHWH was already part of the oral tradition? However, it is interesting that, in this weeks reading, we see Adonai using the term YHWH in the declarative, when He tells Yacov, “I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying." This is the only case that I know of where Adonai refers to Himself as YHWH, prior to Ex. 3. There are several other times it is used in a way other than the declarative. However, if Moshe', or someone after him, compiled Genesis, the name could have been inserted as the perspective of the narrator.
The answer to this problem is that Israel was part of the Covenant with Adonai. The Prophets record many cases where the nations were judged over time. However, such judgments were not based on the Covenant with Israel. Many make much of Israel being the "chosen people". However they fail to note that that are chosen to live according to a higher standard.
How does any of this relate to the problem of Yahweh being a violent god who is said to have forced the Hebrews to worship him only? If he did not tolerate rejection from the Jews, then it makes little sense to say he tolerated rejection from anybody else. So the argument that other cultures knew about Yahweh only to reject and forget about him is illogical and inconsistent with what the Hebrew Bible says about Yahweh.
It relates in that did not know Him as YHWH. Their concepts of the creator deity may have been given other names. Also, Adonai did tolerate rejection. That tolerance may have been shorter for Israel. However, Israel had a covenant with Adonai and the nations did not.
I think any people rejecting a real Yahweh is very unlikely because they would have feared the consequences.
Unless they had convinced themselves of alternate realities, like rational humanism, scientific empiricism, atheistic mysticism, etc.
Now how could they convince themselves that they could have any other point of view when they had an angry and violent Yahweh in their faces ready to strike them dead for wanting to believe in something better?
You're presuming that they had Adonai in their faces. There are cases, in the Scriptures, where Adonai does reveal Himself to the nations. However, even in the case of Israel, judgment is not always swift.
They may very well know Adonai under some other name and have a different covenant.
Would you hazard any guesses for gods Yahweh was masquerading as? Zeus, perhaps?
It is not that Adonai is masquerading, but that no name is sufficient to properly identify Adonai. I personally do not know of another plausible covenant. However, I am not going to state that there definitely is no other.

Zeus may very well have been modeled, by the people who settled along the Adriatic, after an understanding of the same creator deity that revealed Himself to Moshe' as YHWH. Of course, that modeling would have been a pantheistic version, more similar to those of Babylon or Egypt. That said, Jordan Peterson makes a strong psychological argument for the idea of a singular creator deity being established by the comparing of tribal deities, rather than the tribal deities being derived from the singular creator deity. It may be a combination of both, repeated many times, as tribes become absorbed by empires, which in turn eventually fall back into tribalism.

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Re: The Geography of the Gods

Post #33

Post by Jagella »

bluethread wrote:My point is that when Moshe' asks Adonai, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?�(Ex. 3:13), why would Moshe' ask that, if YHWH was already part of the oral tradition? However, it is interesting that, in this weeks reading, we see Adonai using the term YHWH in the declarative, when He tells Yacov, “I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying." This is the only case that I know of where Adonai refers to Himself as YHWH, prior to Ex. 3. There are several other times it is used in a way other than the declarative. However, if Moshe', or someone after him, compiled Genesis, the name could have been inserted as the perspective of the narrator.
I really didn't intend this discussion to be a debate about what names(s) the Jews gave to their god(s). OK? When I speak of "Yahweh," I'm referring to the god that most Jews and Christians believe is the god of the Bible.
Also, Adonai did tolerate rejection. That tolerance may have been shorter for Israel.
He may have tolerated rejection for a short while, but he in almost all cases that I'm aware of eventually got around to hurting or killing those those who rejected him. I see no reason why Yahweh would have not treated people in other cultures the same way. So the claim that he did reveal himself to them only to walk away when they rejected him is unlikely to be true.

And somebody should explain to Yahweh that if he wants people to love him, then a good place to start is to refrain from hurting and killing people.
There are cases, in the Scriptures, where Adonai does reveal Himself to the nations.
But that "revelation" is only in the Jewish scriptures. I don't see any such revelation in the real world.
It is not that Adonai is masquerading, but that no name is sufficient to properly identify Adonai.
Then in what way is "Adonai" insufficient to identify the Bible god? I can easily enough identify what that name refers to. That said, I can see that worshiping a god you have trouble naming can be a real problem.
...Jordan Peterson makes a strong psychological argument for the idea of a singular creator deity being established by the comparing of tribal deities...
Yes, there are commonalities among the gods; that's why we call them "gods," after all. But as far as I know no god ever originated in any culture except that of the Jews who proclaimed that the Jews were his "chosen people." The gods always seem to "choose" the people they first appeared in and never choose some other people. This cultural phenomenon strongly suggests that in most cases people create gods who favor their creators over other people. Who would invent a god who favors somebody else?

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Re: The Geography of the Gods

Post #34

Post by bluethread »

Jagella wrote:
I really didn't intend this discussion to be a debate about what names(s) the Jews gave to their god(s). OK? When I speak of "Yahweh," I'm referring to the god that most Jews and Christians believe is the god of the Bible.
Ok, so claims regarding deities should be based on principle and not similarities and differences in the names of those deities, correct?
Also, Adonai did tolerate rejection. That tolerance may have been shorter for Israel.
He may have tolerated rejection for a short while, but he in almost all cases that I'm aware of eventually got around to hurting or killing those those who rejected him. I see no reason why Yahweh would have not treated people in other cultures the same way. So the claim that he did reveal himself to them only to walk away when they rejected him is unlikely to be true.
I don't see why? People are prone to short term thinking and rationalization. So, rejecting what had been handed down by one's ancestor's is not uncommon, as many of the posts on this site attest.
And somebody should explain to Yahweh that if he wants people to love him, then a good place to start is to refrain from hurting and killing people.
Who says that Adonai wants all people to love Him? Paul addresses this with a hypothetical.
There are cases, in the Scriptures, where Adonai does reveal Himself to the nations.
But that "revelation" is only in the Jewish scriptures. I don't see any such revelation in the real world. (Rom. 9:22-23) "What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—?"
It is not that Adonai is masquerading, but that no name is sufficient to properly identify Adonai.
Then in what way is "Adonai" insufficient to identify the Bible god? I can easily enough identify what that name refers to. That said, I can see that worshiping a god you have trouble naming can be a real problem.
Not based on the Scriptural definition of worship, which is living consistent with one's beliefs, i.e (Rom. 12:1) "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of (Elohiem), that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto (Elohiem), which is your reasonable service."
...Jordan Peterson makes a strong psychological argument for the idea of a singular creator deity being established by the comparing of tribal deities...
Yes, there are commonalities among the gods; that's why we call them "gods," after all. But as far as I know no god ever originated in any culture except that of the Jews who proclaimed that the Jews were his "chosen people." The gods always seem to "choose" the people they first appeared in and never choose some other people. This cultural phenomenon strongly suggests that in most cases people create gods who favor their creators over other people. Who would invent a god who favors somebody else?
No, Adonai is not said in the Scriptures to originate in the culture of the Jews. Though the Tanakh focuses primarily on how Adonai works with the people of Israel, it does not preclude revelation to other cultures and implies such revelation was available to all prior to the time of Avraham. Yes, the idea of being a chosen people is presented as peculiar to Israel. However, it is important to note the significance of being Adonai's "chosen people". That significance is aspirational, not exclusionary. Israel was "chosen" to be a light to the nations. (Gen. 28:14) "And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed." That does not mean that the nations are completely reprobate and are not blessed in other ways. It only means that Israel was chosen so that they would be a blessing to the nations, in addition to the other blessings that are granted to those other nations.

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Re: The Geography of the Gods

Post #35

Post by Jagella »

bluethread wrote:Ok, so claims regarding deities should be based on principle and not similarities and differences in the names of those deities, correct?
I'm not sure what you mean by principle, but yes, let's not get hung up too much on what the Bible god may have been called. Just understand "Yahweh" as the god that the Jews wrote about throughout much of their scriptures. Yahweh is the deity that the Jews believed spoke to Abraham and to Moses.
So the claim that he did reveal himself to them only to walk away when they rejected him is unlikely to be true.
I don't see why? People are prone to short term thinking and rationalization. So, rejecting what had been handed down by one's ancestor's is not uncommon, as many of the posts on this site attest.
Yes, normally people are often "prone to short term thinking and rationalization," but to rebel against an all-mighty god who is right there and can do whatever harm he wishes to those people is not normal. It is not a typical situation in which people can freely choose what to do and to believe what they want without fearing the consequences. So your reasoning that people would or could just shrug off Yahweh is flawed, and such a theory doesn't fit what the Bible says about its wrathful, vengeful, and violent god. If he did reveal himself to people besides the Jews, then in all probability he would rule over them just like he ruled over the Jews, as a tyrant who refused to free them.
Who says that Adonai wants all people to love Him?
Some guy called "Jesus" is quoted that way in Matthew 22:37:
He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
...Adonai is not said in the Scriptures to originate in the culture of the Jews.
But Blue--that's what the Jews had to say. OK? Regardless of what they claimed about where their god came from, all we have is those claims in their scriptures. So as far as we know their god originated in their writings and therefore with them.
Though the Tanakh focuses primarily on how Adonai works with the people of Israel, it does not preclude revelation to other cultures and implies such revelation was available to all prior to the time of Avraham.
Again, we have no evidence for any such revelations to anybody aside from the Jews. None. Zero. Zilch. At best all we have are claims made by the Jews that their god revealed himself to other cultures. Such claims are not evidence for the Bible god being known originally to anybody except the Jews.

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