An imperfect God

[methylatedghosts]

Ok, here's a thing that came up in another forum. I'm not too sure where this goes, maybe fits better in the philosophy one, so feel free to move it.

If God was imperfect, would we know?

Here's my logic behind it.

Lets say that for this thread, God is imperfect. This imperfect God - due to whatever imperfection, would not be able to create anything that is perfect. This would be the universe, and most importantly, us. Now, because We have been created imperfectly, this implies that we are not perfect. This could go so far as to say that our perception of the world would be imperfect. This means that our concept of God would be imperfect. This imperfect perception would then result in the perception that this imperfect god, is perfect. Because God created everything (well he did for the sake of this argument), God will be either just as (im)perfect, or he'd be closer to perfect than whatever it is he creates, i.e. us. So whatever our highest possible imagination of God, That is our perception of perfect, because we do not have actual perfection with which to compare it to.

God = imperfect
Creation = imperfect
Us = imperfect
Our conception of God = imperfect (thats the actual conception being imperfect)
Imperfect conception results in perception of perfect God.

Therefore,

God = perfect - or so is our belief.



Does this make sense and have I missed anything?

The debate is - Would we see an imperfect God as being perfect? Would we be able to see/comprehend those imperfections? Or would we think in this oblivion, that the God that created us, is perfect?


EDIT: btw, for this thread, we define perfect as like the bullseye in a target, and imperfect being anything outside of it. It is not a linear scale.

[mereatheism]

God already knew what good and evil was (Genesis 3:22). Man didn't. That's where your argument fails.

What's your basis for trusting anything the Bible has to say?

[methylatedghosts]

So essentially, this perfect God created mankind simply to experience imperfection? This is a perfect God? No, I would argue that a perfect God could experience anything he chose to. Unless this perfect God didn't have the power to do so, in which case he isn't perfect simply because their is something beyond which He cannot do. So if God must use His creation to experience imperfection, then He isn't perfect.

God doesn't use his creation - God IS the creation. If all there was in the beginning was God, then the universe can be created from nothing else but God. So everything that exists = God.

And there I go and get distracted... >_< I had the perfect answer and now I've lost it :p. I'll try again

God can be nothing but perfect, as relatively speaking, God can only be more perfect than anything else, not less so.

God knew conceptually that he was perfect. But didn't, couldn't, know this experientially. Not without creating the experience of imperfection by which to compare perfection to. You quite possibly know conceptually what it is like to have autism. I understand that through your experience with your son, that you will have a good understanding of autism and how it affects people. But you cannot know this experientially - until (were it possible) you created the experience of autism for yourself.

Here's a little spin-off from your thread about schizophrenics and the war between good and evil:

You may know conceptually what it is like to have schizophrenia . You probably understand that if you have schizophrenia, you see and hear things that are not perceived as real to everyone else. But how can you know with 100% certainty that you yourself are normal? You cannot know experientially that you are normal - until you created the experience of schizophrenia. Only then can you say you know, both conceptually and experientially, that you are normal.

Now swap the word "you" with "God" and the word "schizophrenia" with "imperfect", and "normal" with "perfect" and you may understand what I'm saying.

Because before the universe existed, all there was was God, God could be compared to nothing else - thus is perfect and imperfect (could be at both ends of the spectrum). Now, in physical existence, we, as portions of God, create experiences that are imperfect, and we decide who and what we are in relation to that. When we realise/rediscover/re-member that we are perfect in relation to the imperfect experiences, we have found God, and rediscover that we are a portion of God, and re-member God.

(I hope that answers at least some of your question, but I really need to go now - I have work tomorrow and it is 11:29 pm )

[Confused]

So essentially, this perfect God created mankind simply to experience imperfection? This is a perfect God? No, I would argue that a perfect God could experience anything he chose to. Unless this perfect God didn't have the power to do so, in which case he isn't perfect simply because their is something beyond which He cannot do. So if God must use His creation to experience imperfection, then He isn't perfect.

God doesn't use his creation - God IS the creation. If all there was in the beginning was God, then the universe can be created from nothing else but God. So everything that exists = God.

And there I go and get distracted... >_< I had the perfect answer and now I've lost it :p. I'll try again

God can be nothing but perfect, as relatively speaking, God can only be more perfect than anything else, not less so.

God knew conceptually that he was perfect. But didn't, couldn't, know this experientially. Not without creating the experience of imperfection by which to compare perfection to. You quite possibly know conceptually what it is like to have autism. I understand that through your experience with your son, that you will have a good understanding of autism and how it affects people. But you cannot know this experientially - until (were it possible) you created the experience of autism for yourself.

Here's a little spin-off from your thread about schizophrenics and the war between good and evil:

You may know conceptually what it is like to have schizophrenia . You probably understand that if you have schizophrenia, you see and hear things that are not perceived as real to everyone else. But how can you know with 100% certainty that you yourself are normal? You cannot know experientially that you are normal - until you created the experience of schizophrenia. Only then can you say you know, both conceptually and experientially, that you are normal.

Now swap the word "you" with "God" and the word "schizophrenia" with "imperfect", and "normal" with "perfect" and you may understand what I'm saying.

Because before the universe existed, all there was was God, God could be compared to nothing else - thus is perfect and imperfect (could be at both ends of the spectrum). Now, in physical existence, we, as portions of God, create experiences that are imperfect, and we decide who and what we are in relation to that. When we realise/rediscover/re-member that we are perfect in relation to the imperfect experiences, we have found God, and rediscover that we are a portion of God, and re-member God.

(I hope that answers at least some of your question, but I really need to go now - I have work tomorrow and it is 11:29 pm )

God can be no less than perfect relative to an imperfect creation. However, since He is the one judging the creation to be imperfect, it nullifies His relativity. I could easily argue just the opposite, Mankind is perfect relative to an imperfect God. Once again, we return to the first few posts, it is all dependent on perspepective. But once again, a perfect God cannot create an imperfect creation unless He intentionally created it to be imperfect (which goes against Genesis).

If God has placed a little part of himself in each of us, then we can experience perfection through that part, correct? Then why would we want to create experiences of imperfection. Your logic is getting very murky. You are saying that we aren't imperfect, but our experiences are? I am sorry, I am lost.

[methylatedghosts]

God can be no less than perfect relative to an imperfect creation. However, since He is the one judging the creation to be imperfect, it nullifies His relativity. I could easily argue just the opposite, Mankind is perfect relative to an imperfect God. Once again, we return to the first few posts, it is all dependent on perspepective. But once again, a perfect God cannot create an imperfect creation unless He intentionally created it to be imperfect (which goes against Genesis).

If God has placed a little part of himself in each of us, then we can experience perfection through that part, correct? Then why would we want to create experiences of imperfection. Your logic is getting very murky. You are saying that we aren't imperfect, but our experiences are? I am sorry, I am lost.

I see where you are getting mixed up. We - God's creation - are not imperfect. But the experiences that we - at least most of us - create are imperfect. We can do this, because we have forgotten that we are perfect beings. The portion of God then can experience imperfection. When we eventually re-member that we are a perfect portion of a perfect God, we create only perfect experiences. (But in a sense, imperfect experiences are perfect because they perfectly allow imperfection - does that make sense?)

[Confused]

God can be no less than perfect relative to an imperfect creation. However, since He is the one judging the creation to be imperfect, it nullifies His relativity. I could easily argue just the opposite, Mankind is perfect relative to an imperfect God. Once again, we return to the first few posts, it is all dependent on perspepective. But once again, a perfect God cannot create an imperfect creation unless He intentionally created it to be imperfect (which goes against Genesis).

If God has placed a little part of himself in each of us, then we can experience perfection through that part, correct? Then why would we want to create experiences of imperfection. Your logic is getting very murky. You are saying that we aren't imperfect, but our experiences are? I am sorry, I am lost.

I see where you are getting mixed up. We - God's creation - are not imperfect. But the experiences that we - at least most of us - create are imperfect. We can do this, because we have forgotten that we are perfect beings. The portion of God then can experience imperfection. When we eventually re-member that we are a perfect portion of a perfect God, we create only perfect experiences. (But in a sense, imperfect experiences are perfect because they perfectly allow imperfection - does that make sense?)

Ok, this makes sense only if one doesnt' ascribe to Christianity. If one ascribed to something such as the gnostics did, then I can see your view.

Yes, it makes sense that an imperfect experience is perfect because it allows imperfection, but this is only if we created the experience to be imperfect. However, when we apply this to a God, we are once again left with the quandrum of why would a perfect God create and imperfect creation just to experience imperfection, a perfect God wouldn't want imperfection. It would be like someone with OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder) skipping a few steps before they got out of bed. It wouldn't make sense to their perfect routine and would likely cause a panic attack requiring hospitalization. A perfect God wouldn't want to experience imperfection in this same way, unless he wasn't perfect.

[methylatedghosts]

Ok, this makes sense only if one doesnt' ascribe to Christianity. If one ascribed to something such as the gnostics did, then I can see your view.

Yes, it makes sense that an imperfect experience is perfect because it allows imperfection, but this is only if we created the experience to be imperfect. However, when we apply this to a God, we are once again left with the quandrum of why would a perfect God create and imperfect creation just to experience imperfection, a perfect God wouldn't want imperfection. It would be like someone with OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder) skipping a few steps before they got out of bed. It wouldn't make sense to their perfect routine and would likely cause a panic attack requiring hospitalization. A perfect God wouldn't want to experience imperfection in this same way, unless he wasn't perfect.

I bolded the crucial part in that first sentence. It is WE that create the imperfect experience. Not God. God just observes us.

But why would a perfect God not "want" imperfection? It is the imperfection to which he is compared that allows him to be perfect. An imperfection allows him to say "I am not that". And that is what we do. We create experiences that are imperfect, so that we may know who and what we are compared to that. If we decide of an imperfect experience "that experience is who I am", then we remain here creating more imperfect experiences. If we decide of a perfect experience "that is who I am" then we create more perfect experiences and eventually realise "perfect is who I am. I am perfect. I am God". When we know this, the God portion experiences being perfect compared to the imperfect experiences. Thus, God experiences.

Before the relativity of imperfection, God just was. He wasn't perfect, because imperfection wasn't there to compare to. He wasn't imperfect, because there is no perfect to comapre to. God just was.