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paarsurrey1
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:40 am  Did Jesus die on the Cross? Reply with quote

Did Jesus die on the Cross?

Jesus did not die on the Cross. Quran mentions very clearly that Jesus died a natural death:
[3:55] And they planned, and Allah also planned; and Allah is the Best of planners.
[3:56] When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=3&verse=55

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Reference: Post 8 thread "Did Jehovah forsake Jesus to die on the Cross? "
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:08 pm
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The "glorious body" does not have wounds on it , but Jesus still had fresh wounds which Jesus showed to Thomas.


Didn't Thomas put his fingers in Jesus' wounds to clear his doubt, please?

John 20:24
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+20:24-29

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:40 am
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tam wrote:

Peace to you paarsurrey!


paarsurrey1 wrote:

Did Jesus die on the Cross?

Jesus did not die on the Cross. Quran mentions very clearly that Jesus died a natural death:
[3:55] And they planned, and Allah also planned; and Allah is the Best of planners.
[3:56] When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=3&verse=55

Regards

_____________
Reference: Post 8 thread "Did Jehovah forsake Jesus to die on the Cross? "



I do not see anything in this verse that states Christ could not have died on the cross.

Natural death meaning death of the natural body (this flesh with its blood).


Paul also understood this, and spoke of our bodies as the natural (earthly) body:

"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body." 1Corinth 15:42-44


Perhaps the scribe or translator of this particular verse in the Quran also understood that the natural death meant death of the natural body - and later that understanding was lost? Or perhaps the scribes and teachers did not understand this even at the start?

Either way, this verse from the Quran does not contradict Christ having died on the cross. Because His death was a natural physical death. And all men die a natural - physical - death. (Until Christ returns at least)



Peace again to you and to your household!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Quote:
I do not see anything in this verse that states Christ could not have died on the cross.


There is a clue in the verse "[3:55] And they planned, and Allah also planned; and Allah is the Best of planners." that makes it obvious:

Th non-follower enemies of Jesus planned to kill him on the Cross and as against that One-True-God planned against all odds that Jesus is saved a cursed death on the Cross, is delivered from the Cross in near dead position and is treated by his physician friend/follower named Nicodemus in the tomb of Joseph Armitheya secret follower/friend and when healed Jesus goes out of Judea out from the hands of the Jews and Romans to live much longer and die a peaceful and natural death at the age of about 120/125 in a land famous in the world as "Heaven on Earth" where time stands still due to serenity and tranquility and where water, in all or any forms, is charms like rivers, lakes, springs, make music , most fit for innocent Jesus to take refuge there from the tribulations he had to face in Jerusalem at hand of the wicked Jews of the time and their prolonged conspiracies.
So, yes, the Verse does give an obvious clue that Jesus was not to die on the Cross and was to die a natural death elsewhere. Right, please?
Those Christians who love Jesus must be happy that Jesus was not killed but he survived. Why should they wish that Jesus would have killed, please?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:59 am
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[Replying to post 22 by paarsurrey1]

The answer is in John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:09 am
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Olla wrote:

[Replying to post 22 by paarsurrey1]

The answer is in John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up.


I don't see anything in the verse John 3:14 that is connected with Jesus dying on the Cross. Is it, please?
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:19 am
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[Replying to JP Cusick]

For years now, I've been researching on the topic "Did Jesus die on the Cross?" I'm most interested in Biblical matters as you are obviously.

I have come to the conclusion that Christ died on a stake, not on the cross. In my research, I came across what Vine's Expository dictionary says on the subject. Apparently, the Greek word translated as "cross" in the KJV - as used, for example, in Matthew 27:40 - is "stauros" . Here's what that dictionary says about stauros:

A — 1: σταυρός
(Strong's #4716 — Noun Masculine — stauros — stow-ros' )
denotes, primarily, "an upright pale or stake." On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroo, "to fasten to a stake or pale," are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed "cross." The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the "cross" of Christ. - https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/ved/c/cross-crucify.html

Apparently, Christendom began to use cross only "by the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. Tau or T, was the symbol of the Babylonian god Tammuz. Christendom adopted that symbol, with the cross-piece lowered, to stand for the "cross" of the Christ. And so, the cross is a pagan, not a Christian, symbol.

As a second witness to this assertion, another lexicon, Thayer's, as well, says that the primary definition of stauros is an upright stake, esp. a pointed one. - https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/4716.html

Do you agree with their conclusion?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:57 am
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elijahpne wrote:



As a second witness to this assertion, another lexicon, Thayer's, as well, says that the primary definition of stauros is an upright stake, esp. a pointed one. - https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/4716.html

Do you agree with their conclusion?


Crucifixions by the Romans varied, depending on the degree of sadism of the soldiers. It was common for victims to carry their own cross. Seneca gives gruesome details of various methods employed and he says that sometimes the victim's arms were outstretched on an added piece to form a fork. Cicero in his case against Verres, says that a victim had cried out that he was a Roman citizen, which should have excused him crucifixion; Christ would not have been given that privilege. In his famous, but disputed statement, Josephus says:
"There was a wise man called Jesus, a good person who could work wonders….He attracted many followers – Jews and non-Jews. Pilate, at the request of our [Jewish] leaders, sentenced him to death by crucifixion.”

The crux, or cross could be called a tree. The basic "stauros" may have been the descriptor, but what further pieces were used, and how, was up to those who carried out the punishment, so it's perfectly possible crucifixion meant imposition on a cross as we understand it.

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