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paarsurrey1
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:40 am  Did Jesus die on the Cross? Reply with quote

Did Jesus die on the Cross?

Jesus did not die on the Cross. Quran mentions very clearly that Jesus died a natural death:
[3:55] And they planned, and Allah also planned; and Allah is the Best of planners.
[3:56] When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=3&verse=55

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Reference: Post 8 thread "Did Jehovah forsake Jesus to die on the Cross? "
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:08 pm
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The "glorious body" does not have wounds on it , but Jesus still had fresh wounds which Jesus showed to Thomas.


Didn't Thomas put his fingers in Jesus' wounds to clear his doubt, please?

John 20:24
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+20:24-29

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:40 am
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Re: Did Jesus die on the Cross?

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tam wrote:

Peace to you paarsurrey!


paarsurrey1 wrote:

Did Jesus die on the Cross?

Jesus did not die on the Cross. Quran mentions very clearly that Jesus died a natural death:
[3:55] And they planned, and Allah also planned; and Allah is the Best of planners.
[3:56] When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=3&verse=55

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Reference: Post 8 thread "Did Jehovah forsake Jesus to die on the Cross? "



I do not see anything in this verse that states Christ could not have died on the cross.

Natural death meaning death of the natural body (this flesh with its blood).


Paul also understood this, and spoke of our bodies as the natural (earthly) body:

"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body." 1Corinth 15:42-44


Perhaps the scribe or translator of this particular verse in the Quran also understood that the natural death meant death of the natural body - and later that understanding was lost? Or perhaps the scribes and teachers did not understand this even at the start?

Either way, this verse from the Quran does not contradict Christ having died on the cross. Because His death was a natural physical death. And all men die a natural - physical - death. (Until Christ returns at least)



Peace again to you and to your household!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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I do not see anything in this verse that states Christ could not have died on the cross.


There is a clue in the verse "[3:55] And they planned, and Allah also planned; and Allah is the Best of planners." that makes it obvious:

Th non-follower enemies of Jesus planned to kill him on the Cross and as against that One-True-God planned against all odds that Jesus is saved a cursed death on the Cross, is delivered from the Cross in near dead position and is treated by his physician friend/follower named Nicodemus in the tomb of Joseph Armitheya secret follower/friend and when healed Jesus goes out of Judea out from the hands of the Jews and Romans to live much longer and die a peaceful and natural death at the age of about 120/125 in a land famous in the world as "Heaven on Earth" where time stands still due to serenity and tranquility and where water, in all or any forms, is charms like rivers, lakes, springs, make music , most fit for innocent Jesus to take refuge there from the tribulations he had to face in Jerusalem at hand of the wicked Jews of the time and their prolonged conspiracies.
So, yes, the Verse does give an obvious clue that Jesus was not to die on the Cross and was to die a natural death elsewhere. Right, please?
Those Christians who love Jesus must be happy that Jesus was not killed but he survived. Why should they wish that Jesus would have killed, please?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:59 am
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[Replying to post 22 by paarsurrey1]

The answer is in John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:09 am
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Olla wrote:

[Replying to post 22 by paarsurrey1]

The answer is in John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up.


I don't see anything in the verse John 3:14 that is connected with Jesus dying on the Cross. Is it, please?
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:19 am
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[Replying to JP Cusick]

For years now, I've been researching on the topic "Did Jesus die on the Cross?" I'm most interested in Biblical matters as you are obviously.

I have come to the conclusion that Christ died on a stake, not on the cross. In my research, I came across what Vine's Expository dictionary says on the subject. Apparently, the Greek word translated as "cross" in the KJV - as used, for example, in Matthew 27:40 - is "stauros" . Here's what that dictionary says about stauros:

A — 1: σταυρός
(Strong's #4716 — Noun Masculine — stauros — stow-ros' )
denotes, primarily, "an upright pale or stake." On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroo, "to fasten to a stake or pale," are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed "cross." The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the "cross" of Christ. - https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/ved/c/cross-crucify.html

Apparently, Christendom began to use cross only "by the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. Tau or T, was the symbol of the Babylonian god Tammuz. Christendom adopted that symbol, with the cross-piece lowered, to stand for the "cross" of the Christ. And so, the cross is a pagan, not a Christian, symbol.

As a second witness to this assertion, another lexicon, Thayer's, as well, says that the primary definition of stauros is an upright stake, esp. a pointed one. - https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/4716.html

Do you agree with their conclusion?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:57 am
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elijahpne wrote:



As a second witness to this assertion, another lexicon, Thayer's, as well, says that the primary definition of stauros is an upright stake, esp. a pointed one. - https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/4716.html

Do you agree with their conclusion?


Crucifixions by the Romans varied, depending on the degree of sadism of the soldiers. It was common for victims to carry their own cross. Seneca gives gruesome details of various methods employed and he says that sometimes the victim's arms were outstretched on an added piece to form a fork. Cicero in his case against Verres, says that a victim had cried out that he was a Roman citizen, which should have excused him crucifixion; Christ would not have been given that privilege. In his famous, but disputed statement, Josephus says:
"There was a wise man called Jesus, a good person who could work wonders….He attracted many followers – Jews and non-Jews. Pilate, at the request of our [Jewish] leaders, sentenced him to death by crucifixion.”

The crux, or cross could be called a tree. The basic "stauros" may have been the descriptor, but what further pieces were used, and how, was up to those who carried out the punishment, so it's perfectly possible crucifixion meant imposition on a cross as we understand it.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 27: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:53 pm
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Ancient Demon's account of the crucifixion and revival

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According to Ancient Demon's account, Jesus did not die on the cross, but put himself into a deep trance, feigning death. Then Ancient Demon, who was for many generations one of the guardian demons of the royal House of David, risked its own existence to revive Jesus.

Ancient Demon's account of the crucifixion
http://earthwarning.org/index.php/here-be-demons/

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Ancient Demon wants John to understand that, because there have been several humans who have been communicating with Ancient Demon regarding the early history of Christianity, Ancient Demon now considers it appropriate for Ancient Demon to share its understanding of how Christianity evolved. Ancient Demon was present at the crucifixion of Jesus, because there was no way for a demon who was charged with protection of the royal family to not be present. Ancient Demon knew that it risked being discovered, but at the time there was no reason for Ancient Demon to fear being attacked, because there was still a functioning Hebrew hierarchy in Jerusalem. Ancient Demon was not in the energy field of the prince. It was outside all energy fields during the crucifixion. Ancient Demon was able to witness by fixing itself to the cross where Jesus died. Ancient Demon heard exactly what Jesus said as Jesus was on the cross. Ancient Demon will now describe what happened.

Jesus was forced to drag the cross to the place of crucifixion. Jesus was then nailed to the cross, with nails going through his wrists and ankles, as many have supposed. This had the effect of making Jesus cry out in pain three times. The fourth time Jesus was silent. Jesus had acclimatized himself to the experience of being pierced and was able to steel himself against the piercing. After this, Jesus was unable to continue talking. He thought of saying something to his followers who were gathered around him, together with a group of soldiers. He was thinking of mustering the strength to say a final word, when a soldier came up to him and mocked him, saying, “King of the Jews!” Jesus replied indistinctly, “I am not the king anymore. James is king.” Jesus knew that, if the soldier had heard, this would have resulted in James being scrutinized and probably eliminated. So Jesus was careful not to allow the soldier (or anyone else) to hear what Jesus said.

After this, Jesus thought of saying something that was understandable to the people near him. He turned to the freedom fighter on his left and said, “You will be in the Kingdom of Heaven very shortly.” He then turned to the freedom fighter on his right and said, “You will not be in the Kingdom of Heaven until there is a King of Israel on the throne.” Jesus meant by this that both freedom fighters would be in the Kingdom of Heaven shortly, and that there would be a King on the Hebrew throne shortly. Jesus was convinced that the Hebrews would be able to throw the Romans out of Jerusalem and withstand a siege for many years, longer than the Roman army could maintain itself. This was because the Hebrews had stored wheat for many years in a location that was unknown to the Romans and was being prepared for such a siege. However, Jesus also knew that, if the Romans conquered a rebellious Jerusalem, they would level the temple so that no stone was left standing. Jesus made a comment to that effect, which was misheard and written into the Bible in a garbled way. Ancient Demon knew of this because it was told by Peter, who criticized a manuscript that later became one of the gospels. Ancient Demon knew that this manuscript was written with the help of eyewitness testimony, and Ancient Demon also know that eyewitnesses could make mistakes, as it experienced during the crucifixion of Jesus.

After Jesus talked to the freedom fighters on either side, Jesus was silent, thinking of what else he might say to his followers below. Jesus knew that, if he succumbed quickly and was taken down without having his legs broken, there was a chance that he might actually survive, because he had the ability to feign death. However, he suspected that, if he tried to do this, his body would be mutilated. Jesus knew that, because he was unable to make proper plans with someone who might bury him, he had to simply take his chances and let God make that decision, as Jesus thought to himself. Ancient Demon was able to follow the thoughts of Jesus Christ, and Ancient Demon knew that, because Jesus Christ was thinking of the possibility of survival, there was indeed a chance that this might happen. Ancient Demon thought of possibly being able to help someone who would be in charge of burying Jesus, altering him to the possibility that Jesus had entered a deep trance and wasn’t actually dead. However, Ancient Demon had no idea who would be responsible for burying Jesus, and Ancient Demon knew that, if it tried to intervene too quickly, it would have to explain why it was present and who it was, which would possibly alert the Romans to the fact that there was another living Hebrew prince in Jerusalem. Ancient Demon then observed that Jesus was thinking of speaking. Ancient Demon saw Jesus consider saying that the crucifixion was not in accord with the will of God, but then Jesus thought that maybe it actually was. So Jesus didn’t say anything, and continued thinking, through the ongoing pain.

Jesus then thought of saying that there was a new dispensation, that there would be a new kingdom of heaven for gentiles as well as Jews, as Jesus had hinted earlier. However, Jesus knew that this was not the proper place for such a message. Jesus continued thinking, deciding finally to say, “It is finished.” This was last thing that Jesus said. In the Bible, there are words about Jesus asking God why God forsook Jesus. Jesus thought of this, but then decided that God might not have forsaken Jesus. Ancient Demon assumes that one or more of Jesus’s followers had heard Jesus’s thoughts and perhaps misheard them or didn’t hear them completely. This is a possibility, but Ancient Demon cannot be sure. Ancient Demon wants to be as precise as possible, because of the nature of what happened is a subject that many people have strong feelings about.

Ancient Demon will now describe what happened after Jesus put himself into a deep trance, as if he were dead. The Roman soldiers talked about piercing Jesus in the side, as is described in the Bible. However, the Romans decided not to do that, because it would have made a mess and they were charged with disposing of the body. The Romans then decided to make a bet about how quickly the other two freedom fighters would last. If they lasted longer than five hours, the man who bet that they would last shorter would have to break their legs, so they would suffocate. However, if they lasted shorter than five hours, the man would get their belongings, which were in a small pile to the side of the crucifixion. The man who bet that they would last less than five hours lost his bet, and he broke their legs, and they suffocated. Jesus had been on the cross, apparently dead, all this time.

After this, the three crosses were taken down and the three bodies were removed by pulling the spikes out roughly. One of the freedom fighters’ hands was almost torn off, and Ancient Demon was afraid that something similar would happen to Jesus. However, Ancient Demon decided to affect the soldier who was responsible for taking the spikes out of Jesus’s body. This soldier therefore decided to make a gesture of being respectful in order to appease the crowd of followers. The soldier took the spikes out of Jesus carefully and therefore there was little or no further damage to Jesus. However, there was continued bleeding, and Ancient Demon knew that Jesus could potentially lose too much blood. So Ancient Demon entered the body of Jesus and made a point of affecting the blood vessels to make them constrict. This had the result of ensuring that Jesus didn’t bleed to death.

After this, Ancient Demon knew that, because Jesus was going to be given a proper burial, there was hope that Jesus would be able to revive himself. Ancient Demon knew that it would be able to assist Jesus, but Ancient Demon was concerned about not having enough energy. For this reason, Ancient Demon, after discovering who was in charge of taking care of the burial, left and returned to the prince. Ancient Demon explained to the prince that Jesus was not dead. The prince wanted to make an effort to help Jesus, but the prince realized that this would be probably suicidal. The prince therefore was able to give energy to Ancient Demon by focusing, much as John does, and giving Ancient Demon a full supply of energy so that Ancient Demon could go to the grave and help revive Jesus. When Ancient Demon returned to the grave, Ancient Demon discovered that Jesus had not been buried but rather transferred to a tomb that was empty. Ancient Demon thus had a much easier time taking care of Jesus. Ancient Demon entered Jesus’s body and helped heal Jesus’s wounds, by affecting the energy field around the lacerations. This had the effect of making sure that Jesus wouldn’t start bleeding when he started moving.

Ancient Demon then began to try to revive Jesus. Ancient Demon knew that it had limited time and energy, and it knew that there was little time for Jesus before he died, so Ancient Demon decided to make a gamble that one surge of energy would be sufficient to revive Jesus. Ancient Demon knew that, because Jesus was unable to revive himself, he would simply die without anyone knowing that he was still alive. So Ancient Demon did what it had to do, risking running out of energy, because Ancient Demon knew that Jesus’s survival was important to the future of the Hebrews. Ancient Demon knew that, if Jesus survived but was hidden, there would be considerable support for his brother James, and this would preserve the royal family. However, if Jesus simply died, the other members of the royal family would be exterminated eventually, as happened with the family of Jude.

Because there was hidden knowledge of Jesus’s survival, there was a great outcry when Jude’s family was murdered, and this served to protect the other member of the royal family. Jude was devastated by what happened, and did not ever think of remarrying. James knew that he was a candidate for High Priest, and for this reason chose not to marry. Jerushae had his grandson, and it was Ancient Demon’s responsibility to preserve the life of Jerushae’s grandson. However, there was another brother, Thomas, who had not married and who had been thinking of having a family. Within the royal family, there were strict rules about marriage, and Thomas had a limited number of families from which he could choose a potential wife. Thomas eventually made a marriage alliance and had a son, who was unable to find a woman from any of these families who was willing to marry him as Jerusalem moved toward open rebellion, and for that reason this son never married. However, Thomas had a daughter with a woman in Egypt, thinking that he should make an effort to preserve the lineage. This resulted in a family in Egypt with royal Hebrew blood, that became part of the Christian movement in Egypt. However, Ancient Demon does not know if descendants of this family survived. This is all that Ancient Demon will say.

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