Calvinism

[Wootah]

Was God's work on the cross 100% complete or was it incomplete and God also needed to force some people to believe?

[ElCodeMonkey]

If God forces ppl to believe then the work on the cross was not 100% and not even relevant?

Pre-determined does not equate to forcing belief. You are predetermined to respond however it is you are going to respond. No matter what you say in response, it is predetermined by all the atoms in your body in their particular arrangement as genes and experience have brought you forth. God need not force anything and you have zero choice in how you will (or won't) respond. It's already set in motion and pre-determined.

[Wootah]

[Replying to ElCodeMonkey]

I feel that is a distinction without a difference. What is the difference?

[ElCodeMonkey]

[Replying to ElCodeMonkey]

I feel that is a distinction without a difference. What is the difference?

God did not force you to write that. Physics did. Why attribute it to God any more than to me or you if it was merely physics?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 13 by ElCodeMonkey]

Do you believe in free will?

[ElCodeMonkey]

[Replying to post 13 by ElCodeMonkey]

Do you believe in free will?

I couldn't possibly define it to even know if I believe in it! I think for all intents and purposes it "seems" like we have this "free will" thing, but that it's just a misconception. How could we be anything but cause and effect? By what means can we "decide" something that is not derived from everything that made us what we are? If you make one decision, rewind time, keeping absolutely everything the same, you will make the same decision. If you made a different decision, something would have to spark that (i.e. something changed). If nothing changed yet you made a new decision, then "free will" would have to be entirely random since you decided by no change in logic in which case it's still not "will" at all, but random.

[ttruscott]

Whether we chose before or after it seems we agree Christ's work on the cross is 100%.

...for what it was designed to achieve, yes.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 13 by ElCodeMonkey]

Do you believe in free will?

I couldn't possibly define it to even know if I believe in it!

Please consider:

The Elements of a True Free Will Choice:

1. Free will can't be coerced:
Nothing in their created nature could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil.

Nothing in their experience could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil.

Nothing in their understanding or knowledge of reality could FORCE them to choose good or evil, love or hate.

In other words, they had to be completely and truly ingenuously innocent.

[Ref: definition of ingenuous: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ingenuousness as: 1. Lacking in cunning, guile, worldliness; artless. 2. Openly straightforward or frank; candid.

2. Consequences must be known but not proved:
The person must understand the purported full consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a true choice. “What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill?� must be answered in full detail.

But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer “death here,� “life there,� was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the effect of a true ‘free will’ choice, no matter what you might otherwise have chosen.

Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice. Such a choice, is described as making a choice based on faith, an unproven hope.

(Aside: Now, ask yourself: is this possible on earth?)

[showme]

Was the work on the cross enough or not?

Well, for me, it was never about work on the cross. The cross was an unfortunate incident for an amazingly perceptive and courageous person focused on loving others above all else. From a Christian standpoint though, I don't see why it wouldn't be "enough" whether things are pre-determined or not. Things are set in motion and those who will be properly aligned with the right magical thinking will be saved due to the sacrifice and those not pre-disposed to the right magical thinking are destined not to be saved at all.

It has been "predetermined" who will "worship" the "beast", and be "deceived" by the "beast with two horns like a lamb" (Revelation 13:8-14). That will be "all who dwell on the earth" "whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life". Apparently, the "deceived", will include all who worship the cross, the image given by the dragon/Sol Invictus to the "beast with two horns ike a lamb", Constantine, the instituter of the Roman church.