Is your sin Original?

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polonius
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Is your sin Original?

Post #1

Post by polonius »

The description of “original shin “ isn’t found in the Bible but it’s linked to the story about the Genesis serpent that convinced Eve and later Adam to eat the “forbidden fruit.�

Actually, the story was developed by St. Augustine in the 4th century working from a mistranslated Latin bible which had added the phrase “In quo� (in whom) in chapter 5� of St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans.

So in some mysterious way all people born were guilty with “the stain" of Adam’s and Eve’s sin. In the seventh century this led to the formulation of the Immaculate Concept doctrine which the Catholic church still considers infallible to this day. It might be noted that the Eastern Catholic Church recognizing Augustine’s writings error has never recognized Original Sin or the Immaculate Conception.

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ttruscott
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Post #81

Post by ttruscott »

myth-one.com wrote:Genesis 1:1 wrote:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

A host of angels were created under the supervision of Satan and given power over the earth as caretakers.
Gen 1:1 gives no support to your next paragraph at all which I doubt you can support...
Satan, that old serpent, was FLUNG, CAST DOWN to the earth with his demonic angels, a funny way to select him and his evil crew as the caretakers of the earth. Especially since Peter says they are held in chains of darkness, ie blindness to the truth. Your suppositions seem to be contrary to the word.
myth-one.com wrote:In fact, Satan still had power over the earth during the life of Jesus:
And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)
As for Satan's claim to authority over the world, he was a liar for the beginning and the father of lies.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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ttruscott
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Re: Le's pretend and see where it leads us.

Post #82

Post by ttruscott »

myth-one.com wrote:
ttruscott wrote:PCE contends that HE created everyone in HIS image ingenuously innocent with a free will and the equal ability and opportunity to choose to become either perfectly eternally righteous or perfectly and eternally evil. And so it started...
But what does "perfectly eternally righteous" mean?
To be righteous and holy like GOD and the righteous, holy angels are holy.
Is it that they cannot possibly sin, or that they will always choose not to sin?
Their commitment to a loving righteousness and holiness in light of having experienced first hand in this world the terrible effects of evil upon reality, means no one WILL ever choose to sin ever again.
And does "perfectly and eternally evil" mean that it is impossible for them to choose good over evil?
Exactly. By their free will decision to accept that YHWH was lying to them in the Gospel their heard, Col 1:23, and their rejection of him as false god with evil intent, they sinned the unforgivable sin by totally rejecting YHWH's help to recover from their enslavement to sin and by not being able to save themselves from their sin. They can't repent to save themselves and won't let GOD help them...
Or does it means they can choose good or evil, but they will always choose evil?
I don't think that enslavement to sin allows them any ability to choose good as that would imply that if HE waited long enough then they would all sooner or later as they suffered, learn to choose the good of repentance and hell would be empty. Since hell is not empty then it is proof that they CANNOT choose good but are under the coercion of their addiction to evil to choose evil.

Only those who cannot be saved will not be saved.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Post #83

Post by ttruscott »

myth-one.com wrote:
Do you believe any of the following verses?
Every one...but obviously not with the same interpretation you have.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Le's pretend and see where it leads us.

Post #84

Post by myth-one.com »

[Replying to post 82 by ttruscott]

First, thanks for your reply!

Who does the stuff in post 82 apply to?

The Bible defines two type of beings -- natural and spiritual.

Mankind cannot be described as "eternally" anything because we cannot live eternally. Thus, there are no eternally righteous or evil men.

I guess I'm asking who is everyone in your statement, "PCE contends that HE created everyone in HIS image ingenuously innocent with a free will and the equal ability and opportunity to choose to become either perfectly eternally righteous or perfectly and eternally evil. And so it started..."

The Bible states the two choices as everlasting life or everlasting death.

I do not see any place in your statement for those who choose death over life.

My Bibles state that believers will be given everlasting life, and non-believers will perish. Those with everlasting spiritual life will still have free will and thus still be capable of sinning.

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Re: Le's pretend and see where it leads us.

Post #85

Post by ttruscott »

myth-one.com wrote: [Replying to post 82 by ttruscott]

First, thanks for your reply!

Who does the stuff in post 82 apply to?
Well, My stuff is my answer to your quotes I quoted.
Mankind cannot be described as "eternally" anything because we cannot live eternally. Thus, there are no eternally righteous or evil men.
While this is obviously true of men on earth, ie humans, it is not true for their spirits which indwell and animate the bodies. I'm pretty sure that every spirit ever created was created to be eternal or hell would be empty by means of annihilation...people in hell prove they were created to be eternal.
I guess I'm asking who is everyone in your statement, "PCE contends that HE created everyone in HIS image ingenuously innocent with a free will and the equal ability and opportunity to choose to become either perfectly eternally righteous or perfectly and eternally evil. And so it started..."
Everyone means any and every person ever created in GOD's image...and refers to the one time creation of every spirit HE ever created in HIS image before the creation of the physical universe.
The Bible states the two choices as everlasting life or everlasting death.
I do not see any place in your statement for those who choose death over life.
Given
- that no one is guilty of a sin they did not choose to do and
- that people are born sinful from conception or birth (when orthodoxy claims they were created)
Then the only time they had to choose to be sinful, to choose to become eternally sinful by sinning the unforgivable sin (they are already condmened at their birth, Jn 3:18, or to become sinful for other sins so that only sinners are born on earth is if their life started pre-earth and they chose to sin in that existence.

Spiritual means they are spirits, non-corporeal people. Natural means they have been covered in a physical body given to them by the Son of man if they were the sinful people of the kingdom and by the devil if they were the people of the evil one, Matt 13:37-9.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Post #86

Post by polonius »

ttruscott posted:
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
QUESTION: Was there a time when these people in Sheol (you claim existed) didn't yet exist?

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Re: Le's pretend and see where it leads us.

Post #87

Post by myth-one.com »

ttruscott wrote:
myth-one.com wrote:First, thanks for your reply!

Who does the stuff in post 82 apply to?
Well, My stuff is my answer to your quotes I quoted.
My apology, I knew that.

There are spirits and humans. I meant does it refer to spirits, humans, or both. You answered below that it refers to both, I think. Sorry for the confusion.
Mankind cannot be described as "eternally" anything because we cannot live eternally. Thus, there are no eternally righteous or evil men.
ttruscot wrote:While this is obviously true of men on earth, ie humans, it is not true for their spirits which indwell and animate the bodies. I'm pretty sure that every spirit ever created was created to be eternal or hell would be empty by means of annihilation...people in hell prove they were created to be eternal.
There are no people in hell, unless hell means their grave. The only being which will spend eternity in the lake of fire is the devil. But the fire won't hurt him. Any humans cast into the lake of fire will quickly suffer their second death, while spirits can frolic in the flames if they so desire.

Man was not "indwelled by any animating spirit" in Genesis. In fact, they were ejected from the Garden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and becoming everlasting spirits.
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)
Man seemed to be "animated" properly at that time without a spiritual body.
I guess I'm asking who is everyone in your statement, "PCE contends that HE created everyone in HIS image ingenuously innocent with a free will and the equal ability and opportunity to choose to become either perfectly eternally righteous or perfectly and eternally evil. And so it started..."
ttruscot wrote:Everyone means any and every person ever created in GOD's image...and refers to the one time creation of every spirit HE ever created in HIS image before the creation of the physical universe.
Additional spirits will be created when believers are born again of the Spirit at the Second Coming. We will then reign over the earth with Jesus.
myth-one.com wrote:The Bible states the two choices as everlasting life or everlasting death.

I do not see any place in your statement for those who choose death over life.
ttruscott wrote:Given
- that no one is guilty of a sin they did not choose to do and
- that people are born sinful from conception or birth (when orthodoxy claims they were created)
Then the only time they had to choose to be sinful, to choose to become eternally sinful by sinning the unforgivable sin (they are already condmened at their birth, Jn 3:18, or to become sinful for other sins so that only sinners are born on earth is if their life started pre-earth and they chose to sin in that existence.
If it is given that people are born sinful, then Jesus was a sinner. Doesn't that kinda ruin the theme of the New Testament?
ttruscott wrote:Spiritual means they are spirits, non-corporeal people. Natural means they have been covered in a physical body given to them by the Son of man if they were the sinful people of the kingdom and by the devil if they were the people of the evil one, Matt 13:37-9.
Spirits aren't hindered by physical laws.

So how can spirits be "covered" by a physical body? Spirits move as the wind. We fly in planes. There's a difference. Spirits can't be covered by anything physical.

But here's where that idea originated:
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

Satan lied when he informed Eve that she would live forever. Mainstream Christian theologians have incorporated that lie into their theologies for nearly two thousand years!

Apparently, PCE accepts it also.

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Mankind's preternatural gifts from God.

Post #88

Post by polonius »

mythology.one. com posted:
Satan lied when he informed Eve that she would live forever. Mainstream Christian theologians have incorporated that lie into their theologies for nearly two thousand years!

Apparently, PCE accepts it also.


RESPONSE:Actually, before any original sin had been committed, people would live forever. Look up the preternatural gifts of man.

They're all great stories!

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Post #89

Post by ttruscott »

polonius wrote: ttruscott posted:
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
QUESTION: Was there a time when these people in Sheol (you claim existed) didn't yet exist?
All spirits who were created in HIS image, that is, who were not divine, were created spirits so there was indeed a time when they did not yet exist.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Le's pretend and see where it leads us.

Post #90

Post by ttruscott »

myth-one.com wrote: There are spirits and humans. I meant does it refer to spirits, humans, or both. You answered below that it refers to both, I think. Sorry for the confusion.
Yes, all people are spirits and humans are spirits that have been sown into a body, though usually human refers only to the body.

There are no people in hell, unless hell means their grave.
I have trouble with the word hell. It is the same word ie used the same, as the words Sheol and Hades as the waiting room for the dead ie unbodied spirits (both before and after their incarnation as humans), though colloquially since Danté it now refers to the lake of fire in the outer darkness. I do not use hell for the outer darkness. I do not accept the argument that hell refers to the grave, but rather follow the ideas of http://www.bible.ca/su-hades.htm.
The only being which will spend eternity in the lake of fire is the devil. But the fire won't hurt him. Any humans cast into the lake of fire will quickly suffer their second death, while spirits can frolic in the flames if they so desire.
Many people think like this; I do not as it can be seen as contradictory to some of the teachings of Jesus and other verses.
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)
Man seemed to be "animated" properly at that time without a spiritual body.
A body dies when the spirit is released from it. A body is animated, brought to life, when the spirit is breathed into it. These are spiritual events, not biological. The JWs believe man has no spirit but is flesh only; is that your belief?
I guess I'm asking who is everyone in your statement, "PCE contends that HE created everyone in HIS image ingenuously innocent with a free will and the equal ability and opportunity to choose to become either perfectly eternally righteous or perfectly and eternally evil. And so it started..."
ttruscott wrote:Everyone means any and every person ever created in GOD's image...and refers to the one time creation of every spirit HE ever created in HIS image before the creation of the physical universe.
Additional spirits will be created when believers are born again of the Spirit at the Second Coming. We will then reign over the earth with Jesus.
What verses describe the rebirth of people in the spirit (or the resurrection ) as a creation of new spirits, please?
If it is given that people are born sinful, then Jesus was a sinner. Doesn't that kinda ruin the theme of the New Testament?
Umm, you seem to have missed the idea held by about 98% of all the rest of Christianity that the Christ Jesus was unique, GOD incarnated as man with no taint of sin. We are not born as sinners because we were created as sinners (no matter what some sects claim) but we were sinners who were later born as human. In the same way, Jesus was not a sinner when he was sown into his body and born as human...the moral state of a human is the same as their moral state before they receive their body.
Last edited by ttruscott on Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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