Reasons for 'belief'

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Mithrae
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Reasons for 'belief'

Post #1

Post by Mithrae »

Discussions on religion often result in folk talking past each other and each 'side' adopting seemingly dogmatic positions, in part because of uncommunicated and often unexamined epistemic assumptions or approaches to belief and knowledge.

For example we often see atheists making the claim that there is "no evidence" for the views they reject. Sometimes this is without clarifying (or even refusing point-blank to answer even when asked about very specific examples) what is meant by 'evidence,' perhaps because testimonial evidence - on which we all depend every time we watch the news or weather report or read about some scientific breakthrough - would shatter the "no evidence" rhetoric if it were acknowledged as a modest but valid form of evidence. But even more fundamentally than that, the demand for evidence or boasting that there is "not a shred" of it reflects a particular approach to belief, roughly described by A or B below, which in itself may not be justified by the critics' own standards... and often isn't even recognized as such!

Conversely, many theists make claims and arguments which really seem persuasive to them, but likewise seem to depend on underlying assumptions which critics just don't share. For example in the case of apologetics around Jesus' resurrection it's roughly described by C below - they just try to knock down alternative scenarios to claim that resurrection is the best explanation. Or in the case of the 'moral argument' or variations on Pascal's wager it would be something more like E below.

In one thread a while back I outlined what I think are the main types of epistemic approaches:
  • Principled - Belief as an intellectual stance, which should be measured by specific criteria
    A > Accepting only what is proven with certainty
    B > Accepting only that for which we have 'sufficient evidence' or justification
    C > Accepting the most reasonable theory/s of any given question/s or data

    Pragmatic - Belief as a normal process, which should be questioned and refined
    D > Accepting what we start out believing, unless and until we find reason to change those beliefs
    E > Accepting whatever seems most beneficial to ourselves or our community
Personally, I find that some combination of C and D is both what comes most naturally to me and seems most reasonable and easily-justified; with the important caveat that accepting something as the most reasonable view often still leaves plenty of room for uncertainty!

Of course there's worthy criticisms of all approaches. For example, A is usually impossible. B can be entirely arbitrary. C fails in cases of (or fails to account for) big uncertainties or lacking data. D is somewhat arbitrary, in the big picture. E is subjective.



So what about everyone else:
Which epistemic approach/es do you adopt? Do you profess a lack of belief and demand 'sufficient evidence' before accepting something (B), or cling to your existing views unless and until they're disproven (D), or something else? Have I missed some important approach?

Whatever approach you take, how do you justify it? Perhaps you even simply take it as axiomatic, unjustified but necessary?

And what potential problems or weaknesses do you see in the approach you take?

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Mithrae
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Re: Reasons for 'belief'

Post #21

Post by Mithrae »

Divine Insight wrote:
Mithrae wrote: Not everyone has as much time on their hands as you or I.
That's no excuse for placing faith in ignorance.
Mithrae wrote: Not everyone is as clever as you either. Some folk struggle with fairly basic maths or logic..
So your apology for people of faith is that they are not very clever and struggle with basic math and logic?

This speaks volumes. :D
Still struggling with basic communication, huh? :( You were talking about "faith" in your weatherman. Why you would have "faith" in your weatherman in the first place is beyond me, but your claim that anyone can understand meteorology to the point of making their own forecasts is obviously even more bonkers.


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rikuoamero wrote: After years of praying, you say...and why couldn't someone say leprechauns or magic? Why couldn't they say something like oh I dunno "Leprechauns/magick work in mysterious ways"?
benchwarmer wrote: I'm with Riku on this one. Perhaps after years of praying to Mary, the leprechauns got fed up and just up and healed the amputee so they wouldn't have to listen to the incessant droning to things that don't exist.
It seems you guys are saying that essentially nothing would persuade you of divine intervention, even if an amputee healed at a Marian shrine were an actual fact. I mean, if you can persuade yourselves that leprechauns would stand on equal footing with Mary's intercession in this scenario, there's literally no observation for which you couldn't do likewise. Even if that Rapture nonsense happened tomorrow you could persuade yourselves that aliens are a more likely explanation. Aliens and/or conspiracy theories could explain away literally anything.

Which perhaps is why Stuart didn't want to answer the question; it would put a pretty damn big asterisk next to all the "not a shred of evidence" boasting if nothing at all would be accepted as compelling evidence. But more on topic it obviously undermines even the slightly more reasonable epistemic approach <B> when we see how easy it is for reluctant folk to reinterpret, blur the lines and deny the status of 'sufficient evidence' to uncomfortable data.

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Divine Insight
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Re: Reasons for 'belief'

Post #22

Post by Divine Insight »

Mithrae wrote: It seems you guys are saying that essentially nothing would persuade you of divine intervention, even if an amputee healed at a Marian shrine were an actual fact. I mean, if you can persuade yourselves that leprechauns would stand on equal footing with Mary's intercession in this scenario, there's literally no observation for which you couldn't do likewise.
The problem with your argument here is that you refuse to recognize the bigger picture. These ridiculous claims that you point to aren't going to make up for a mythological tale that can be shown to be necessarily false.
Mithrae wrote: Even if that Rapture nonsense happened tomorrow you could persuade yourselves that aliens are a more likely explanation. Aliens and/or conspiracy theories could explain away literally anything.
If I saw Jesus descending on a cloud with an army of angels I would absolutely conclude that this is the work of aliens, and not very friendly aliens at that.

Why? Well, because aliens who have been watching and eavesdropping on our planet would know how gullible humans can be. What better way to conquer the human race than to appear as a God that humans are expecting to come?

You would quickly win over the gullible humans whilst having their theology as an excuse why it makes perfect sense that you are killing any humans that resist and refuse to bow down to you.

Then after you have killed off the resistance, you'd have a planet left with only humans who are willing to kiss your feet and do everything you say without question.

What better way to conquer a planet of humans?

On the other hand, why on earth should I believe that a Jesus who preached peace and to love your enemies would come to earth wielding a star wars saber sword cutting off the heads of everyone who refuse to cower down and kiss his feet?

You seem to be ignoring the absolute insanity of Christian theology.

A Jesus who is going to violently kill everyone who refuses to bow down and worship him? Sounds more like something a human like Genghis Khan would do.

Christianity as a religion is an oxymoron. They need for Jesus to be the epitome of righteousness and morality while simultaneously being the epitome of wickedness and immorality.

So yeah, if you ever see Jesus descending from heaven on a cloud with an army of angels you can be assured that it's an alien invasion. :D
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Re: Reasons for 'belief'

Post #23

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 21 by Mithrae]
I mean, if you can persuade yourselves that leprechauns would stand on equal footing with Mary's intercession in this scenario, there's literally no observation for which you couldn't do likewise.
Okay, for the sake of argument, (note, this means I don't really believe it in reality), I will agree that there was a man who had lost a leg, who prayed for years at a shrine to Mary the mother of Jesus, who then had his leg regrown (somehow) and that a number of doctors signed off on it.
Now please explain how you are able to link the regrowth of the leg to praying to Mary (for years, I have to remind you). How sure are you that the one caused the other? If it did cause the regrowth, why did it take years?
It seems you guys are saying that essentially nothing would persuade you of divine intervention, even if an amputee healed at a Marian shrine were an actual fact.
On the contrary, we are being careful. We don't want to jump to conclusions that are unwarranted. What if it was leprechauns, who did it for laughs and giggles? In your scenario, you have (to date) not given us any causal connection between the leg regrowth and the praying to Mary. I therefore could just as easily say it was mischievous leprechauns, and give the exact same level of causal connection as you did: that is to say, none at all.
Even if that Rapture nonsense happened tomorrow you could persuade yourselves that aliens are a more likely explanation. Aliens and/or conspiracy theories could explain away literally anything.
As of now, aliens are a more likely explanation. We already have an example of life on planets (our own) that both you and I agree on. Whereas a Jesus from heaven in command of angels...?
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

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Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Post #24

Post by StuartJ »

I see DI and Rik indulged Mithrae in the surgeons analogy.

The result is exactly why I don't play such games.

Or allow the faithful to lead me into smokescreens of "philosophy" and "epistemology" and "poetic hermeneutical dispensations of universal salvatory grace" or whatever ...

Because whenever you poke your head out of the shiny, convoluted distractions ...

The talking animals are still waving to you from the deck of the ark and Yahweh is still hurling fire and brimstone down on gay people ...

And the faithful are still coughing up their 10% and have convinced themselves a mansion is going to be coming their way real soon ...

Or a whole planet if you're a Mormon who's been wearing their magic underwear correctly.

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