The Trinity.

[Elijah John]

Is the Trinity Divine Revelation? Or is the Trinity a theological construct? Designed by humans to help us to understand God and how to relate to Him?

If the Trinity is Divine Revelation, where and how was that doctrine revealed?

[shnarkle]

According to this oft quoted verse, God has revealed himself to all.

The revelation GOD gave to everyone was "His eternal power and divine nature," which we know from the next verse.

I don't see how you come to this conclusion. We see the effect of his eternal power and divine nature in creation, but the effect is not the eternal power and divine nature. They are without excuse in ignoring that every effect has a cause. Paul's argument in looking at creation presupposes a Creator, but it at no time suggests that what is created is in any way akin to or alike the Creator as this is presicely what one then uses to worship. Paul condemns this as "vain imagination".

[ttruscott]

According to this oft quoted verse, God has revealed himself to all.

The revelation GOD gave to everyone was "His eternal power and divine nature," which we know from the next verse.

I don't see how you come to this conclusion. We see the effect of his eternal power and divine nature in creation, but the effect is not the eternal power and divine nature. They are without excuse in ignoring that every effect has a cause. Paul's argument in looking at creation presupposes a Creator, but it at no time suggests that what is created is in any way akin to or alike the Creator as this is presicely what one then uses to worship. Paul condemns this as "vain imagination".

Rom 1:19
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. FOR SINCE (actually: from, away from) the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

For since, from: Strong's G575: apo
1) of separation
a) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
b) of separation of a part from the whole
1) where of a whole some part is taken
c) of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed
d) of a state of separation, that is of distance
1) physical, of distance of place
2) temporal, of distance of time
2) of origin
a) of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
b) of origin of a cause

I suggest that this refers to the creation of the physical universe and EVER SINCE THAT TIME, when all of creation saw this display of HIS power and divinity and every knee did bow and every voice sang HIS praise, Job 38:7, no one has had an excuse for not bowing in worship to HIM.


These lines are often called the Universal Witness to HIS power and glory and refer to their being evident when we study HIS creation, that is nature and the stars, ...EXCEPT,

there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE IN HISTORY that anyone who studied the nature of creation ever came to believe in the power and glory of YHWH. In fact, without Christian teachers explaining this doctrine, no one has ever taught it. Is this a great world wide conspiracy to deny that they had already understood YHWH to be our creator GOD before the missionaries arrived with these verses?? Verse 19 claims God hath shewed it unto them from heaven so everyone should know of it and report that they figured it out, eh? This does not seem to jibe with what we know actually happens in the real world, ie, this interpretation needs some serious work.

Think of the Hindus and Buddhists whose study of the nature of reality proves themselves to be of the divine essence and that they will become fully divine in their day. Proof of YHWH? Not hardly... If their damnation depended upon this interpretation of this verse to PROVE their lack of excuse, they will live forever. This lack of reality for this interpretation of this verse demands a new look at it from a new pov.

"...the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen," "being understood by the things that are made" implies that these damned souls saw the creation of the world that clearly showed to them the proof of the invisible things they previously rejected as lies, (YHWH's divinity, the reality of heaven and hell, the reality of evil and righteousness etc etc) except it is never considered due to the bias orthodoxy has for the 'we are created on earth' theory.

My exegesis:
For the wrath of God [ie HIS judgment, damnation]
is revealed from heaven [where the revelation came from, where it was established]
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness [GODless sinners, non-elect]
of men [all men under judgment, all non-elect],
who hold the truth in unrighteousness; [ie they know the truth, they understand the truth but they ignore it for love of sin]
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; [they know what there is to know about GOD]
for God hath shewed it unto them.[because GOD proved HIMself to them]
For the invisible things of him [HIS divinity, HIS power and glory]
from [ever since: as as referring ot the time of the origin of this proof of HIS invisible attributes]
the creation of the world [that which provided the proof]
are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [the creation of the physical world]
even his eternal power and Godhead [HIS invisible attributes];
so that they are without excuse: [since they were there and saw HIS power and majesty when HE created the physical universe, they are without excuse when they face GOD's wrath for un-fatih, even though they may not have heard the gospel preached here on earth.]

[shnarkle]

According to this oft quoted verse, God has revealed himself to all.

The revelation GOD gave to everyone was "His eternal power and divine nature," which we know from the next verse.

I don't see how you come to this conclusion. We see the effect of his eternal power and divine nature in creation, but the effect is not the eternal power and divine nature. They are without excuse in ignoring that every effect has a cause. Paul's argument in looking at creation presupposes a Creator, but it at no time suggests that what is created is in any way akin to or alike the Creator as this is presicely what one then uses to worship. Paul condemns this as "vain imagination".

Rom 1:19
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them;

Notice that what is manifest is manifest "in them".

for God hath shewed it unto them.

Again, note that it has been shown to them.

FOR SINCE (actually: from, away from) the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

For since, from: Strong's G575: apo
1) of separation
a) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
b) of separation of a part from the whole
1) where of a whole some part is taken
c) of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed
d) of a state of separation, that is of distance
1) physical, of distance of place
2) temporal, of distance of time
2) of origin
a) of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
b) of origin of a cause

I suggest that this refers to the creation of the physical universe and EVER SINCE THAT TIME, when all of creation saw this display of HIS power and divinity and every knee did bow and every voice sang HIS praise, Job 38:7, no one has had an excuse for not bowing in worship to HIM.


These lines are often called the Universal Witness to HIS power and glory and refer to their being evident when we study HIS creation, that is nature and the stars, ...EXCEPT,

there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE IN HISTORY that anyone who studied the nature of creation ever came to believe in the power and glory of YHWH.

I don't know why you think this. Creation naturally presupposes a Creator. What will be is in fact manifest in what is. That is what YHVH means right?

In fact, without Christian teachers explaining this doctrine, no one has ever taught it. Is this a great world wide conspiracy to deny that they had already understood YHWH to be our creator GOD before the missionaries arrived with these verses?? Verse 19 claims God hath shewed it unto them from heaven so everyone should know of it and report that they figured it out, eh? This does not seem to jibe with what we know actually happens in the real world, ie, this interpretation needs some serious work.

Straw man arguments don't need work. It doesn't take much to look around at what is, came to be.

Think of the Hindus and Buddhists whose study of the nature of reality proves themselves to be of the divine essence and that they will become fully divine in their day.

God creates man in his image, and destines or predestines them to be reborn as "sons of god".

Proof of YHWH?

An equivalent account of what the bible presents showing what God will be.

Not hardly... If their damnation depended upon this interpretation of this verse to PROVE their lack of excuse, they will live forever.

I don't know what that means. You lost me.

This lack of reality for this interpretation of this verse demands a new look at it from a new pov.

Equally mysterious to me.

"...the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen," "being understood by the things that are made" implies that these damned souls saw the creation of the world that clearly showed to them the proof of the invisible things they previously rejected as lies, (YHWH's divinity, the reality of heaven and hell, the reality of evil and righteousness etc etc) except it is never considered due to the bias orthodoxy has for the 'we are created on earth' theory.

I see no necessity in delving into some mythology when the creation clearly suggests a creator. The effect clearly suggests a cause.

My exegesis:
For the wrath of God [ie HIS judgment, damnation]
is revealed from heaven [where the revelation came from, where it was established]
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness [GODless sinners, non-elect]
of men [all men under judgment, all non-elect],
who hold the truth in unrighteousness; [ie they know the truth, they understand the truth but they ignore it for love of sin]
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; [they know what there is to know about GOD]
for God hath shewed it unto them.[because GOD proved HIMself to them]
For the invisible things of him [HIS divinity, HIS power and glory]
from [ever since: as as referring ot the time of the origin of this proof of HIS invisible attributes]
the creation of the world [that which provided the proof]
are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [the creation of the physical world]
even his eternal power and Godhead [HIS invisible attributes];
so that they are without excuse: [since they were there and saw HIS power and majesty when HE created the physical universe, they are without excuse when they face GOD's wrath for un-fatih, even though they may not have heard the gospel preached here on earth.]

Again, this mythology isn't necessary for those who can see the created world, and assume that it always existed with no need for a creator. Even now we see this being presented by those who have figured out that a beginning to the universe suggests some divine origin whereas a universe that always exists, needs no God.

[polonius]

ttruescott posted:

PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

RESPONSE: You are certainly entitled to your own view, but realize that continuing to repeat it doesn't make it so.