The Trinity.

[Elijah John]

Are these questions actually problems inherent with the doctrine of the Trinity?

1) If the Father is Spirit, (and according to John he is) and the Holy Spirit is Spirit, doesn't that make two Spirits? Why the distinction between the two?

2) Does a person recieve the "Risen Christ" or does a person recieve the Holy Spirit when a person becomes a Christian? Who "knocks on the door" of our heart? Who empowers the Christian to do the will of God? Who leads and guides the believer?

3) And if we consider that Jesus is (according to the Creed) is "eternally begotten of the Father" and had a pre-existance, doesn't that make three disctict Spirits in the Christian pantheon? How is that not three Gods?

4) Was Jesus full of the Holy Spirit, annointed of the Holy Spirit, and led by the Holy Spirit? If Jesus was already God, why would he need this?

In addition to the whole 3 in 1 "mystery" do these questions further illustrate that the doctrine of the Trinity causes more problems than it solves?

[ttruscott]

Are these questions actually problems inherent with the doctrine of the Trinity?

1) If the Father is Spirit, (and according to John he is) and the Holy Spirit is Spirit, doesn't that make two Spirits? Why the distinction between the two?

Of course there is a distinction between two Persons of the Trinity. The Trinity refers to their UNITY created by their having divine characteristics, not their persons.

2) Does a person recieve the "Risen Christ" or does a person recieve the Holy Spirit when a person becomes a Christian? Who "knocks on the door" of our heart? Who empowers the Christian to do the will of God? Who leads and guides the believer?

Where we read about the Spirit of Christ, we accept it refers to the Spirit of Christ. Where we read about the Spirit of GOD it can refer either to the Holy Spirit or to the unified Trinity named YHWH. Where we read about the Holy Spirit, we accept it refers to the Person the Holy Spirit.

3) And if we consider that Jesus is (according to the Creed) is "eternally begotten of the Father" and had a pre-existance, doesn't that make three disctict Spirits in the Christian pantheon? How is that not three Gods?

The divine characteristics that make them divine (if we were talking about humans we would be talking about their DNA that restricts them to being human and not plants or other animals) create a Unity of Divinity such that the words ONE GOD contain more truth and proper meaning than 3 GODs...Their divine persons make 1 Unified GOd while if there were 4 or 9 divine persons there would still only be ONE GOD: Genesis 2:24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become ONE flesh. The word for ONE flesh is the same as the word for ONE YHWH and is accepted in both places to have the same meaning of ONE as a UNITY, rather than the numeral 1. ONE flesh cannot be seen nor logically understood but Bible believers of all Sects accept it. Trinitarians just accept it in one more application.

4) Was Jesus full of the Holy Spirit, anointed of the Holy Spirit, and led by the Holy Spirit? If Jesus was already God, why would he need this?

This doesn't refer to His need, it refers to our need to know that though a true man, He was also in close Unity with YHWH, that His humanity was not based upon sinfulness as the rest of humanity is (ony sinners are born human) but on the will of GOD.

In addition to the whole 3 in 1 "mystery" do these questions further illustrate that the doctrine of the Trinity causes more problems than it solves?

What problems? That people with a secular pov do not accept the pov of those with the Spirit is ordinary and not a problem. IF GOd wants someone to understand then it happens, no problem. Anyway, it is not our understanding of Spiritual things that saves us from death but our faith in the work of the Christ for us...and all understanding is merely a strengthening of our faith.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

1. God is The Holy Spirit

2. You are Baptized by and receive the Holy Spirit(God). NT seems to back this up in Acts.

3. Yeshua/Jesus is as he called himself, The Son of man. He pleased YHVH and much authority was given to him. God gave him that authority.

4. Jesus was full of the Spirit of God. He was the word of God made flesh. His sacrifice allowed those out of covenant, out laws, Gentiles, Goyim able to be remarried to God's word as death releases the marriage covenant and is the only way a divorced woman can remarry, according to Moses. The exception is sexual immorality, as Christ stated.

The RCC and many protestant denominations all use the mystery excuse to explain their unexplainable doctrines of man. God's law is easily explained and not far off from us that we would have to go and find it. It is written in our hearts. But, when our hearts mislead or doubt(our own hearts are not to be completely trusted as scripture tells us), it is written on easily accessable paper or internet. The religion problem we face is not The Word of God, but the doctrine and traditions of men which cause the Word to seem to conflict. I implore everyone who have interest to just read the bible as a whole in complete harmony and stop after the 4 Gospels and write down every instruction of our messiah , keep those in mind to rectify and harmonize the rest with it.

[Revelations won]

Elijah John has posted the following thought provoking questions in his OP:

Are these questions actually problems inherent with the doctrine of the Trinity?

1) If the Father is Spirit, (and according to John he is) and the Holy Spirit is Spirit, doesn't that make two Spirits? Why the distinction between the two?

Answer: It appears obvious that they both are spirit personages. This does not in any way restrict the Father from also having a physical body.

2) Does a person receive the "Risen Christ" or does a person receive the Holy Spirit when a person becomes a Christian? Who "knocks on the door" of our heart? Who empowers the Christian to do the will of God? Who leads and guides the believer?

Answer: My answer is yes. What is wrong with receiving both?
Answer part two is where do you find a scriptural basis for, "Who knocks on the door of our heart?"

3) And if we consider that Jesus is (according to the Creed) is "eternally begotten of the Father" and had a pre-existence, doesn't that make three distinct Spirits in the Christian pantheon? How is that not three Gods?

Answer is: I agree with you in part i.e. As I understand it both the Father and The Son have bodies as tangible an man, but the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit. And, yes, that constitutes three members of the God Head.

4) Was Jesus full of the Holy Spirit, anointed of the Holy Spirit, and led by the Holy Spirit? If Jesus was already God, why would he need this?

Answer: Christ prayed that the disciples would become one as thou Father art in me. As I understand it this refers to one in purpose , not one in body as some interpret it to mean.

In addition to the whole 3 in 1 "mystery" do these questions further illustrate that the doctrine of the Trinity causes more problems than it solves?

Answer: I agree completely with you on this question.

[ttruscott]

Are these questions actually problems inherent with the doctrine of the Trinity?

1) If the Father is Spirit, (and according to John he is) and the Holy Spirit is Spirit, doesn't that make two Spirits? Why the distinction between the two?

Pre-creation Jesus was a divine Spirit also, so...? The distinction is that these three divine Spirits are three distinct individual people whose divine attributes cause their GODliness to be a Divine UNITY in which they are not in fact three Gods but ONE GOD.

[ttruscott]

2) Does a person recieve the "Risen Christ" or does a person recieve the Holy Spirit when a person becomes a Christian? Who "knocks on the door" of our heart? Who empowers the Christian to do the will of God? Who leads and guides the believer?

To receive ONE is to receive all THREE. To have ONE knock is for ALL THREE to knock.
This is what a perfect unity means.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 6 by ttruscott]



Acts 8:14-18 New International Version (NIV)

14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money

New International Version (NIV)

Paul in Ephesus
19 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?�

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.�

3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?�

“John’s baptism,� they replied.

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.� 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus's. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 6 by ttruscott]

All baptisms are valid regardless of what is believed?

[Revelations won]

Dear Postroad,

I think it is very clear that Paul recognized that those who were baptized were not baptized by proper authority. Thus this Apostle properly re-baptized them and with that authority which he possessed.

He then laid hands on them and they then received the Holy Ghost and exercised the promised gifts of the Holy Ghost as recorded.

Best regards,
RW

[polonius]

Unfortunately "eternally begotten" is a contradiction in terms.

beget[bih-get]
verb (used with object), be·got or (Archaic) be·gat; be·got·ten or be·got; be·get·ting.

(especially of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).
to cause; produce as an effect:


Therefore anything which is begotten had a beginning and is not eternal.