Why Would God Care What We Believe?

[ElCodeMonkey]

Let's assume the typical Christian orthodox of Jesus dying for our sins is true and that we must believe in him to be saved. I don't care to prove that it's true or not in this thread--we''ll just assume it is--but rather WHY does God care what we believe? Why would God be so intent on ensuring we believe something rather than only being intent on ensuring what we physically do with our lives? I'm not looking for "it's both" or the like, I'm wondering why God cares about the former at all. Why would our thoughts even matter to God and not only our actions?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 50 by mrhagerty]

Christ's follows believed through the Spirit that his return was imminent. They were wrong. That's the reality. Christianity is blasphemy from a Jewish perspective. Even from a strictly pragmatic position it is foolishness to boldly claim that those who first believed, have been damned by their own God and this as a predetermined event.

I'm supposed to weigh that on the balance of probabilities and come out in favour of the side who is claiming the title of new covenant while simply not fulfilling the prophecies?

That would be foolhardy if one considers the character described in the OT.

[Deleted]

"Replying to post 50 by postroad"

Christ's follows believed through the Spirit that his return was imminent. They were wrong. That's the reality.

There is no predictive prophecy that Christ was returning in a specific time frame where a test of fulfillment could be conducted.

The parable of the thief in the night controls the meaning of statements about His coming. We are to be on guard and live as though he comes tonight, much as the owner of the house is to be prepared each night, even if the thief doesn't come when expected.

If you think there was an expected time and Jesus failed to do it, why is there not a single testimony in the early church that Jesus failed to fulfill such a prophecy. Search all you want, you won't find anyone complaining.

And the Jews upset with the Christian movement would have been hot on the money to expose this. They say nothing.

Even from a strictly pragmatic position it is foolishness to boldly claim that those who first believed, have been damned by their own God

You only have to consult the NT to find the actual reason why this abhorrent eventuality occurred. They had abandoned true faith in favor of man-made traditions which they elevated above the Word of their Father. They had converted Judaism into an institution they controlled not God. They were now a people who did not know God.

I agree with you it is mind-boggling. But it happened.

and this as a predetermined event.

Not so. Predicting an event based on foreknowledge of all events is not pre-determining the event to occur.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 52 by mrhagerty]

In fact many instances of predictive fulfillment exist. Usually followed by a textualy awkward walking back of the statement.

[Deleted]

"Replying to 53 by postroad"

In fact many instances of predictive fulfillment exist. Usually followed by a textualy awkward walking back of the statement.

My claim above wasn't that there were no predictive prophecies, but no predictive prophecy that Christ was returning in a specific time frame

[postroad]

[Replying to post 54 by mrhagerty]

I am coming soon,this is the last hour, this generation will not pass, you will not go through the towns of Israel before, the generation to which the culmination of the ages has come, what is it to you if he doesn't taste death, the kingdom of God is at hand, if you can accept it John is the Elijah that was to come, we who are alive until he comes, and even more so as we see the Day aproaching. Do not roll up the scroll of the prophecy because the time is near, what must soon take place

Not sure if I have the wording exact but that's what I can recall just off the top of my head.

[Deleted]

"Replying to post 55 by postroad"

I am coming soon,this is the last hour, this generation will not pass, you will not go through the towns of Israel before, . .

Many of these I understand you see as failures and some are harder to explain into harmony than others, I agree. But not all.

"It is the last hour" (I John) This is well known as a term with broad application of meaning that does not strictly apply to one usage. Fortunately, John explains it is being used in relation to the span of time when many antichrists will come before the final antichrist. That necessarily will be a long time, since so much of the world would have to change before that figure can come on the scene.

"this generation will not pass away" - discussed in the other thread - this isn't the generation that hears him speaking, but the one that sees the events of tribulation. The other generation phrase of this sort is actually about the Transfiguration which took place almost immediately after this was spoken.

So, neither of these are rigid predictions of a specific time that has passed and were not fulfilled.

"Not go through the towns until . ."

I see this as the program of witnessing will never be finished up to the coming of the Son of Man, i.e. witnessing will be an open ended task through to the day of His appearing. This interpretation is supported by the lack of the word before and the use of until. (Yes, I realize others may reject that observation, but it has good scholarly support.)

“the generation to which the culmination of the ages has come.� This is not a prophecy being claimed for fulfillment (if you disagree, show me the verse), but rather a conclusion made by a man of faith, who is expressing his belief about the urgency of the times.

“ what is it to you if he doesn't taste death.� The key is in the next verses which show this is only a hypothetical to teach Peter a point: “yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?�

“the kingdom of God is at hand,� The kingdom was offered sincerely but it was a conditional promise. Its fulfillment was conditional on Judaism accepting Him as Messiah. They didn’t, so then lack of fulfillment is not laid at God’s feet.

“ if you can accept it John is the Elijah that was to come,�

The key phrase “if you can accept it� indicates this is a type being presented not the real person. Otherwise, Jesus would have said without qualification, “Elijah has now come in John.�

“ we who are alive until he comes,� This is simply another way of saying “those who are alive until . .� We’re not entitled to impose strong Western exactitude on Eastern modes of expression. You and I are strongly inclined to read Paul as critical to the group he means. The eastern mind did not see this phrase that way.

When we see verses we can’t adequately explain and seem to present contradictions, there are two approaches. 1) some make these pick-breakers and are willing to reject the entire Bible because a contradiction was found, 2) others choose to weigh the profound corpus of Scripture that has been fulfilled or conveys astounding wisdom and truth against a few verses that can’t be reconciled.

When I see Jesus fulfilling so many OT predictions down to the pulling out of the beard and soldiers gambling for his cloak, the details of the crucifixion, that Messiah would come and be cut off, I give the rest of Scripture the benefit of the doubt. But then I don’t have the commitment to see the Bible done to death.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 56 by mrhagerty]

It was conditional on accepting Jesus?

But what where they to accept about him?

Jesus's mission depended on them rejecting him in accordance to Scriptures. There wasn't any chance they would accept him.

You are a learned individual. Certainly I don't need to show you the texts that show this? How isn't it then at God's feet?

Jesus himself claimed the mission of Israel's extended suffering.

I know that the texts have him despairing that they wouldn't accept him while simultaneously having him declareing that they wouldn't be allowed to do so.

To me it's simply another absurdity. Deliberately leading into transgression and moaning about it. His Disciples were given the advantage of hearing the meaning of the parables, partaking in the power of the Spirit and a detailed explanation of what was to happen. They all abandoned him in the end. Judas personally betrayed Jesus.

Believers would have everyone think it was due to character flaws. It is explained as absolute requirements to fulfill prophecy. Although they are sharply rebuked nonetheless.

Matthew 26:31-32 New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial
31 Then Jesus told them, “This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written:

“‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’[a]
32 But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee.�

John 17:12
While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

The text that Jesus quoted clearly places God as the cause.

New International Version (NIV)

The Shepherd Struck, the Sheep Scattered
7 “Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is close to me!�
declares the Lord Almighty.
“Strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered,
and I will turn my hand against the little ones.