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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:36 pm
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How can Christianity be the new covenant?

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The two concepts are mutually exclusive.

Jeremiah 32:38-40 New International Version (NIV)

38 They will be my people, and I will be their God. 39 I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me and that all will then go well for them and for their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.

Compared to.


Micah 7:1-6 New International Version (NIV)

Israel’s Misery
7 What misery is mine!
I am like one who gathers summer fruit
at the gleaning of the vineyard;
there is no cluster of grapes to eat,
none of the early figs that I crave.
2 The faithful have been swept from the land;
not one upright person remains.
Everyone lies in wait to shed blood;
they hunt each other with nets.
3 Both hands are skilled in doing evil;
the ruler demands gifts,
the judge accepts bribes,
the powerful dictate what they desire—
they all conspire together.
4 The best of them is like a brier,
the most upright worse than a thorn hedge.
The day God visits you has come,
the day your watchmen sound the alarm.
Now is the time of your confusion.
5 Do not trust a neighbor;
put no confidence in a friend.
Even with the woman who lies in your embrace
guard the words of your lips.
6 For a son dishonors his father,
a daughter rises up against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man’s enemies are the members of his own household.


Jesus claims both.

New International Version (NIV)

19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[a] 21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table.


Matthew 10:34-36 New International Version (NIV)

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.

Luke 12:49-51 New International Version (NIV)

Not Peace but Division
49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.

Jesus weeps that he can't bring peace to Jerusalem.

Luke 19:41-43 New International Version (NIV)

41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side.

But it was deliberately hidden.

Matthew 13:10-13 New International Version (NIV)

10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.


Acts 4:27-28 New International Version (NIV)

27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

Romans 11:6-8 New International Version (NIV)

6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”l


How can this be when God promised to reverse the condition in the new covenant?

Jeremiah 24:6-7 New International Version (NIV)

6 My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7 I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:17 pm
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Hi Postroad

Its very hard to dissect so many passages, nor to detect a logical flow.

First I want to start with Jeremiah 24. There is imagery there that implies separation, good and bad figs and the bad figs dont inherit the land. This concept of good/bad figs or even sheep/goats is constant in both books. Ultimately how can there be peace without division?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:33 pm
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[Replying to post 2 by Wootah]

Jeremiah 24:4-7 New International Version (NIV)

4 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 5 “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians.[a] 6 My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7 I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.

Considering that the Jews in first century Jerusalem were the descendants of those that returned how is it that God didn't keep his promise to their ancestors and to them?

He had already divided them from the bad figs.

The exiles from Babylon were those who received the promise of the new covenant.

In fact it was only being recycled in the first century because it never came about originally.

Jeremiah 32:36-40 New International Version (NIV)

36 “You are saying about this city, ‘By the sword, famine and plague it will be given into the hands of the king of Babylon’; but this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: 37 I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety. 38 They will be my people, and I will be their God. 39 I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me and that all will then go well for them and for their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:52 pm
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[Replying to postroad]

If I make a promise to my children that if they eat their dinner then they will have desert surely that promise is only valid to the children that eat their dinner?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:09 pm
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[Replying to post 4 by Wootah]

That's it? The unconditional promise that God himself will ensure obedience is dependent on the recipients being obedient?

God wasn't able to do as he said? As far as I know the Jews didn't apostatize in the first century. What reason did he have for destroying Jerusalem and the Temple?

If the NT is to be believed then God never intended that the exiles from Babylon to receive the unilateral promise anyway. It was simply a deception among many of the shadows that were to lead to the reality of Christ.

Although national Israel was excluded from that as well. Ironically this time for refusing to abandon the Law.

Although it seems that nobody has received anything yet but are waiting for a otherworldly fulfillment.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:14 pm
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[Replying to post 5 by postroad]

Read the OT to understand how Israel was behaving.

Deception is subjective. It suggests bringing preconceived notions to the bible.

Im not waiting for an otherwordly fulfillment. I have a rock solid guarentee of salvation based upon the Bible. And it is unconditional. I am saved regardless of what i have done or will do.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:36 pm
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[Replying to post 6 by Wootah]

Do you have any textual evidence to support that the post exile Jews relapsed into idolatry or any of the practices described pre exile?

I have presented my case using textual support. You have presented your opinions.

Your opinion doesn't make resolve any of the tensions in the text. I have shown that the texts used to support Christianity are recycled failed prophecy from the Babylon exile period.

Are. You simply going to continue to respond with opinions to my posts?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:52 pm
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[Replying to post 7 by postroad]

Your quoting from Jeremiah. That whole book is my evidence of God's view.

Jeremiah 1:16 I will pronounce my judgments on my people
because of their wickedness in forsaking me,
in burning incense to other gods
and in worshiping what their hands have made.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:01 pm
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Are you talking about when they are allowed back to Israel by Cyrus?

Are you talking about the period of silence between the OT and the NT?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:10 pm
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[Replying to post 8 by Wootah]


Why are you bringing up the pre exile portion of Jeremiah?

The book goes on from there through the exile and the return. It then makes explicit promises regarding that generation and those born to them forever.

What happened that in only five hundred years they were back in exile?

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