What does Paul mean, when he says

[Elijah John]

Romans 14.33

..for whatever is not of faith is sin.

What does this mean? Is everything a person does during the course of a day a matter of faith? Are mundane activities "of faith"? If not, are mundane things "sin"?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 87 by brianbbs67]

The fact that Paul forbids circumcision would nullify this prophecy. Only those circumcised could enter the Temple.

New International Version (NIV)

Salvation for Others
56 This is what the Lord says:

“Maintain justice
and do what is right,
for my salvation is close at hand
and my righteousness will soon be revealed.
2 Blessed is the one who does this—
the person who holds it fast,
who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it,
and keeps their hands from doing any evil.�
3 Let no foreigner who is bound to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely exclude me from his people.�
And let no eunuch complain,
“I am only a dry tree.�
4 For this is what the Lord says:

“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases me
and hold fast to my covenant—
5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls
a memorial and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that will endure forever.
6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord
to minister to him,
to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servants,
all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant—
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations.�
8 The Sovereign Lord declares—
he who gathers the exiles of Israel:
“I will gather still others to them
besides those already gathered.�

I don't see Paul forbidding it. Just saying it bears no weight as to salvation.

As you see the scripture, what is more important? Following what Christ commanded or what you have been taught Paul did?

I side with Christ.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 91 by brianbbs67]

If you don't see it then it is because you don't want to. The text is clear on the matter.
Everyone who isn't a sociopath instinctively understands the basic concepts that apply to a social species such as ourselves. There isn't any good reason to bind ourselves to the decayed remnants of a set of pointless dietary and ceremonial ordinances in hopes of receiving some thrice failed promises or in order to pretend one is in some way special and removed from the unwashed masses of humanity.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 80 by brianbbs67]

Wasn't circumcision the first tenet of Israel?

1 Corinthians 7:17-19 New International Version (NIV)

Concerning Change of Status
17 Nevertheless, each person should live as a believer in whatever situation the Lord has assigned to them, just as God has called them. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.

No, the first was "Love the Lord with all your heart , all your mind and all your soul" That is the greatest commandment.

Yes, that is the greatest commandment.

For postroad: circumcision (of the flesh) was given by God to Abraham (and his household) as a symbol of the covenant between them (between God and Abraham).

What you have to remember when reading Paul is the context. 50AD. Gentiles are coming to the synagogues because of faith in Christ , looking to be converted(Judaism ).

So, you had the unclean(gentile, goyim) worshiping with the Jews. All their traditions railed against them associating with the unclean.

I'm not arguing against converts being able to come into the synagogues, but I am wondering what you are thinking of here:

The problem was, as Yeshua pointed out, Moses' law was not against new converts coming into the synagogue.

Can you point out to me where you are suggesting that Christ pointed out that this was the problem, so that I may have some context?

There were actually rules set up for processing the new people. These were the 4 commands given to the church by James. Why? Acts 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations thosewho preach him in every city, being read in the synagogue every Sabbath.

What is the basis for this claim (that these are the rules set up for processing new people)?

This was just the beginning for the new converts.

What is the basis for the idea of a gradual conversion? Because as far as I can tell, brian, this is something that men (who were not there and who do not know) have invented long after the fact, as a reason to justify putting people back under the 'yoke that neither the disciples nor their ancestors could bear'. (Acts 15:10)

They would learn Moses every Sabbath and begin to follow more and more.

WHY would they learn Moses if Moses (and God) told them to listen to Christ? Why would they learn Moses when Moses and the Prophets are bearing witness to Christ?

Christ will teach His sheep all we need to know (not just on one day of the week, but on all days, any day, any time). Our eyes are supposed to be upon Him. Not turned back toward the guardian that led to Him.


“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.�

They would be expected, by some, to get circumsision later when they were ready. Did not Christ say it was better to be circumsized of the heart/spirit?

Those who expected such a thing were wrong to expect it.

Circumcision of the heart is what is needed (as you know).

Nothing in the decision (from the spirit, that the apostles shared) suggested that the gentiles coming to Christ would eventually have to follow the law of Moses and also get circumcised (in the flesh). The letter states that they will 'impose no further burden upon you than the following...'. Why would Peter have objected to putting a yoke on their necks, a burden that they and their fathers could not bear - if indeed he thought it good to place that yoke upon the necks of the gentiles after all?

The sect of Judaism that christ started was called the Way by the remaining apostles.

This is not quite accurate.

The disciples were called followers of the Way because they followed Christ, who is Himself the Way.

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."


They were not following a sect of Judasim. They were not following a religion at all.

They were following Christ: the Way.


**


Paul said that he was persecuting this Way. Remember who Paul was persecuting though:

"Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

(and of course whatever one does to even a least one of the brothers of Christ, one does for Him... Matt 25:40)

Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD and destroyed the Way shortly there after. Rome took over the religion and changed it to suit them.

Rome could not have destroyed the Way, because Christ is the Way.

Should we worship God as He tells us to worship Him, or how man tells us or we decide to worship?

We should worship God as Christ tells us to worship God, and Christ tells us that the kind of worshipers the Father desires are those who worship in spirit and in Truth. Not on "this mountain or that mountain" (this religion or that religion), but in spirit and in Truth (in/through Christ):

“Believe Me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in Truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.



Peace again to you, brian, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[postroad]

[Replying to post 93 by tam]

It was a lot more than for Abraham and his household.

If Jesus actually stated the following then he believed that the whole of the Law is of human origin.

John 7:21-23 New International Version (NIV)

21 Jesus said to them, “I did one miracle, and you are all amazed. 22 Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a boy on the Sabbath. 23 Now if a boy can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing a man’s whole body on the Sabbath?

Genesis 17:8-14 New International Version (NIV)

8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.�

9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.�

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 93 by tam]

It was a lot more than for Abraham and his household.

I was including his descendants in his household.


But yes, the foreigners/servants in his house were also to be circumcised.

If Jesus actually stated the following then he believed that the whole of the Law is of human origin.

John 7:21-23 New International Version (NIV)

21 Jesus said to them, “I did one miracle, and you are all amazed. 22 Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a boy on the Sabbath. 23 Now if a boy can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing a man’s whole body on the Sabbath?

I'm not sure why you think that. This is a clarification that circumcision did not (originally) come from Moses, but was handed down from the Patriarchs (beginning with Abraham to be precise, which your second quote from Genesis makes clear).




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[postroad]

[Replying to post 95 by tam]

It came from God and didn't have an end date. It was as also an obligation that separated the Jews from the Gentiles. One of the other had to conform to the other in order for there to be a unified body.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 93 by tam]

Peace to you Tam,

Just look up Noahide laws for non-Hebrews and you will see these were the beginning steps of conversion. I hope and pray. Moses and all the prophets never preached a dissolved law. If we keep all the Hebrew Feasts of God, in the beginning , why would it stop after the cross? We follow God, then don't follow God, until He returns and then we keep the Feasts outlined again?

As to what our Christ said to do, he said to follow the Law and prophets and ask forgiveness and forgive so that we could be forgiven. Find a reference in the 4 Gospels where Christ speaks of the law ending with him?? Remember what Paul always said when accused. He was never accused of christianity, he was accused of teaching contrary to the law and prophets. He claimed never to have done so. Even if you read Paul differently, which many did, why would his word overrule Christ?

The curse of the Law is what we are freed of if we believe the Christ. "The handwritings of the ordinances against us". These were they curse of the law and place on a scroll outside the ark of the covenant. The law is a blessing and perfect, not a burden(jer.). Transgressing the law brings the curse or punishment. Why would God make something that is described in the OT as perfect, easy and not a burden, and eternal for all mankind, no longer valid? God never changes. Man does. If God is the same today, yesterday and for eternity, is eternity now shorter? All the prophecy has not played out. So, the law has not either per our savior.

Did not Christ say "those who teach others to disobey parts of the law, will be the least in Heaven?" Modern churches lead us to be the least at best. Why not be the best we can be?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 97 by brianbbs67]


You can't have the Jewish observances and Paul both. It's one or the other.

New International Version (NIV)

Paul’s Concern for the Galatians
8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces[a]? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

12 I plead with you, brothers and sisters, become like me, for I became like you. You did me no wrong. 13 As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you, 14 and even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15 Where, then, is your blessing of me now? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

17 Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may have zeal for them. 18 It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always, not just when I am with you. 19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20 how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!

Hagar and Sarah
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 98 by postroad]

What does that prove? An Idolotrist people were serving God AND their old gods against what was taught to them by Paul.

Verse 4-5 of that chapter.

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

The we reference is to the gentile Galatians, who had been adopted to God. Paul was admonishing them for still turning to other gods. And calling them back to their "secure position "

the slave reference (in 6-7) is a slave to this world and its ruler, Satan(false gods), not the law.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 99 by brianbbs67]

What did Paul do in Jerusalem at the Disciples request? And why did he lie about to the Galatians? What truth in Paul's Gospel would be compromised by giving in?

And from what do the believers have freedom from that the Jews wish to enslave them with?


Galatians 2:1-6 New International Version (NIV)

Paul Accepted by the Apostles
2 Then after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4 This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.

6 As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my message.