Some of the historical conflicts in the New Testament.

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polonius
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Some of the historical conflicts in the New Testament.

Post #1

Post by polonius »

While some claim the Bible is inerrant, how do we explain the contradictions it contains?

For example:

Was Jesus crucified on the Passover (Matthew, Mark, Luke) or on the Day of Preparation before the Passover (John)?

Following Jesus' birth, did his family return to Nazareth (Luke) or did they settle for a time in Egypt (Matthew)?

Was Jesus born during the reign of King Herod (who died in 4 BC)(Matthew) or during the 6 AD census of Judea (Luke)?

Did Jesus ascend to heaven on the day he rose from the dead (Luke) or 40 days later (Acts of the Apostles?)

polonius
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Please clarify and shoe the relavaNCE

Post #21

Post by polonius »

JW posted
No, just trying to get you to go by the plain meaning of words and refer to the actual words in the text. Which words exactly restrict the move to Nazareth to within 40 days of Jesus birth? Which words exactly limit the move to Nazareth happening on the 41st day after Jesus birth?
RESPONSE: "Which words exactly" restrict" the move to Nazareth to within 40 days of Jesus birth?"
[/b]

Please evidence precisely where I made this assertion claiming such a "restriction".

Or are you asserting what I never said so you can attack what I never said?

showme
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Re: Some of the historical conflicts in the New Testament.

Post #22

Post by showme »

liamconnor wrote: I am a Christian, but not an inerrantist.

The problem of the chronological disrepancy between Luke and Matthew is, in my opinion, insoluble. The maneuvers required by inerrantists depend on inserting gaps into passages which lack defined time. I don't think it works:

In both, Jesus is born in Bethlehem.

In Luke, forty days from his birth he is brought to Jerusalem. The text then says "And when they had performed everything...they returned to...Nazareth."
Now, some ambiguity can be read into "And WHEN they had performed...". Perhaps some can read into this that they returned to Bethlehem, where Matthew's chronology would take place, and then "they returned to Nazareth".

Luke would then run thus:

Jesus is born in Bethlehem.
Jesus is taken to Jersualem
(Jesus returns to Bethlehem)
(Jesus is taken to Egypt)
Jesus is taken to Nazareth

If so, we must schedule Matthew as such:

Jesus is born in Bethlehem.
(Jesus is taken to Jerusalem)
Jesus returns to Bethlehem
Jesus lives in Bethlehem
Jesus is taken to Egypt
Jesus is taken to Nazareth.

In my opinion, Luke's language in "when they had performed everything..." (2:39) does not allow such an enormous amount of time. If he had used an aorist participle (in Greek) then perhaps. But he uses an adverb (os) which indicates an immediate sequence.
An inerrantist bases his salvation on there being no mistakes in his "holy" bible, regardless that the false prophet Paul is responsible for 2/3 of their NT. You will have a hard time convincing them to give up something they have spent their whole lives bound around, no matter how firm your argument is. They will just rephrase what is written into what they want it to say, and ignore anything that does not agree with their position. As for the JWs, I am not sure, but I think they wrote their own version of the bible to help them do just that.

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Post #23

Post by polonius »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 16 by polonius]

Which word renders the above reading impossible? The word "There or "he" or "made" maybe "his home "?
RESPONSE: Please quote the sentences containing the word you are asking about.

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Post #24

Post by polonius »

polonius wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 16 by polonius]

Which word renders the above reading impossible? The word "There or "he" or "made" maybe "his home "?
RESPONSE: Please quote the sentences containing the words you are asking about so we can review them in context..

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Post #25

Post by polonius »

polonius wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 16 by polonius]

Which word renders the above reading impossible? The word "There or "he" or "made" maybe "his home "?
RESPONSE: Please quote the sentences containing the words you are asking about.

polonius
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In what year was Jesus born and when did he die?

Post #26

Post by polonius »

I seem to be getting posts about when the Judean census was conducted by Quirinius ,and, according to Luke, Jesus was born. (Matthew has him born about 10 years earlier, which I believe is correct, but it destroys Luke’s birth narrative.) And of course Luke contradicts the birth narrative of Matthew .

Lets begin with the writings of historians of the early first century.

Wikipedia posts:
“The Census of Quirinius was a census of Judea taken by Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, Roman governor of Syria, upon the imposition of direct Roman rule in 6 CE.[1] The Gospel of Luke uses it as the narrative means to establish the birth of Jesus (Luke 2:1–5), but places it within the reign of Herod the Great, who died 9 years earlier.[2][3][4] No satisfactory explanation of the contradiction seems possible on the basis of present knowledge,[5]and most scholars think that the author of the gospel made a mistake.[6]:

Josephus’s account of the Census of Quirinius:
(JOSEPHUS MISDATED THE CENSUS OF QUIRINIUS john h. rhoads*)
“ An enduring challenge for those reconstructing historical dates for the life of Jesus has been the date for the census of Quirinius because the Gospel-writer Luke and the )rst-century Jewish historian Josephus di*er on its date. Luke, when read consistently with Matthew, dates the birth of Jesus to both the reign of Herod the Great (Luke 1:5, cf. Matthew 2:19–22) and a census under Quirinius (Luke 2:1–2). Josephus, on the other hand, reports that Quirinius conducted his census long after Herod’s death, at the exile of Herod’s son Herod Archelaus. So, either Luke or Josephus—at least as usually construed—must be wrong�

From Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus
Jewish Antiquities , XVIII, i, 1: Quirinius, a Roman senator who had proceeded through all the magistracies to the consulship and a man who was extremely distinguished in other respects, arrived in Syria, dispatched by Caesar [Augustus] to be governor of the nation and to make an assessment of their property. Coponius, a man of equestrian rank was sent along with him to rule over the Jews with full authority. Quirinius also visited Judaea, which had been annexed to Syria, in order to make an assessment of the property of the Jews and to liquidate the estate of Archelaus; but the Jews, although at the beginning they took the report of a taxation heinously, yet did they leave off any further opposition to it ...
We can be certain of the date of this census, because Josephus actually mentions the year 6:
Jewish Antiquities , XVIII, ii, 1: Quirinius had now liquidated the estate of Archelaus; and by this time the registrations of property that took place in the thirty-seventh year after Caesar's defeat of Antony at Actium were complete. Since the high priest Joazar had now been overpowered by a popular faction, Quirinius stripped him of the dignity of his office.
Luke 2:2 says that the census first (π�ώτη) took place when Quirinius was governing Syria. The straight-forward reading of this, accepted by most scholars, is that Luke is saying this was the first census in the region.

My opinion:
There are some serious conflicts with the dating if it be claimed that Jesus was born during this census. We know this census was conducted when Archelaus was exiled in 6 AD. But if Jesus was born in 6 AD and executed in 30 AD, he was only 24 years old when he died. Elsewhere it is opinioned that he died at age 33 to 36 years of age.

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Post #27

Post by brianbbs67 »

Just to add the the debate is this of the 2 Sabbaths of passover week

http://thewayofthemessiah.org/tsp.html

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