Jagella wrote:
There is no peace when murder is glorified.
Did you read my post, Jagella? By this comment I have to suspect not. Where in my post did I glorify murder?
I do not know how anyone answers this question so absolutely, considering all the variables involved. Different time, different place, different needs for the survival of an entire community, possible errors in the text from the erring pen of the scribes, a definite lack of details from two sentences in a manuscript describing an event that took place three thousand-ish years ago.
Tam, we have a story of Yahweh/Christ ordering that a man be brutally murdered;
You have an incomplete story of God (not Christ) ordering a man be executed for violating one of the ten commandments.
Some of the variables are listed above.
as a result a crazed mob bashed his head in with rocks.
If your position was so strong, you would not need to add your own spin and details to the tale. I suspect a crazed mob might have simply stoned the man then and there, rather than bring him to Moses because they did not know what should be done.
But this is a detail not mentioned in the story.
Like I said, variables.
I don't care about "variables."
Obviously.
But if you want
me to answer a question honestly and absolutely, then those variables matter.
The place and time make no difference.
The time and place and circumstances absolutely make a difference as to how a person or a people react, think, feel.
Although I might point out that the OP suggests that the reader keep in mind that this man might have been gathering sticks to keep his family warm...
Why else would he gather sticks other than to do the work he needed to do? The man did nothing wrong.
Since the story does not say, you are guessing. You are guessing at the expense of the previous verse which speaks of a man DEFIANTLY breaking the law, and that man would be the one who is supposed to be cut off from his people.
If the man defiantly broke the law, then of course he did something wrong.
If it was the other case (he had to help his family or something like that), then I gave you an example of where Christ said that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (such as healing a person). This is one of the reasons I would question this story (or at least acknowledge that there are extenuating circumstances and variables).
I notice that you ignored all of those examples from Christ in your response to me.
...when this cautionary tale actually comes directly after the warning about a person defiantly breaking the law.
So brutally murdering a man is justified if he's warned? Any person with a bit of compassion would defy such a wicked god. The man is a hero for obeying the stupid sabbath law.
It is ridiculous to call a man a hero for disobeying the law, especially when he agreed to obey it to begin with.
You don't know enough about the man to call him anything. The fact that you proceed to do so anyway, shows
your bias, not mine.
Then there are questions about me: Would I have been the same person at that time? How might events have shaped me differently? Would I have known then what/who I know now?
Your religion binds you to absolute obedience to Yahweh/Christ. No matter how wicked, cruel, or stupid the injunction might be, you must do it.
Perhaps this describes you when you were religious, Jagella.
But it has
absolutely nothing to do with me, my faith, or my post. Where in the world did you even come up with that? Or is it just that you had no response to my actual words?
If you want to know what I would (hope to) do in a situation like that, then ask me a question that is going to pertain to me in the here and now (or at least in my future).
Fine. If Christ ordered you to butcher me, would you do it?
A - Christ would never order me to do such a thing. It goes against everything He has taught me (by His words and by His deeds).
B - I would not. It would go against the love and the mercy that He has taught me (and He teaches what He learned from His Father). It would go against the spirit He has given me. I would in fact be disobeying Him to carry out such a command (though He would never give me such a command to begin with).
And of course we also have Christ saving the life of the woman caught in adultery.
Isn't that weird? Christ orders that women be murdered only to "save" one.
The only weird thing is that you claim Christ ordered women to be murdered. He ordered no such thing.
We have that example from Him as to what HE would do in a situation where a person is brought to him to be stoned... and so we have an example from Him as to what God TRULY desires.
Mercy, not sacrifice.
Christ is the One who reveals God to us as God truly is.
So we see!
Apparently you do not see.
I gave you multiple examples of Christ's words and deeds regarding the Sabbath. He speaks just as His Father has taught Him to speak; so He is showing us in that what God truly desires, and who God truly is.
See
Christ, and you see God.
Know
Christ, and you know God.
Not because they are the same person, but because Christ is the image (and truth) of God. He reflects His Father, shows us His Father as His Father truly is.
I feel very strongly about this issue because I have been a victim of Christian violence and abuse.
You have been the victim of violence and abuse, regardless of what religion those people who abused you claimed to belong to. They were certainly not listening to Christ or to His Father, to be able to abuse you. Those who abused you were wrong of course! But their actions are on them.
When apologists lie to white-wash their religion, they hurt people, and it appears that they don't care if they hurt people.
Why are you directing this comment toward me? I have not lied. Nor do I white-wash religion - I have no religion TO whitewash. I have faith - and faith and religion are two very different things.
May you have peace,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy