Civil Debates on Christianity and Religions

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ProphetTom
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:27 pm  What is sin? Reply with quote

Is it sin when a man goes out doing kind things?

If that same man spoke kind words that lead to sin has he sinned?

If he was innocent of knowing the sin he lead you to and so were you was it still a sin that he lead you to it?

Most of us believe that a child that has done a great sin like murder playing with Dad gun should be forgiven?
For innocence knows not the sin they have done. So you make a lesson and amends and move on?

The sin was real but was the child to be considered sinless? Or just forgiven?

If that sin passed down from generation to generation. Was it those who know and never taught you better that are to blame?

Is the father that taught you wrong first a sinful one?

Or was he the wise one that knew to teach sin first by example?

Is that abuse sin?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:54 pm
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amortalman wrote:

2ndRateMind wrote:

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Love is never wrong, because God is love*, and He is perfect. Only lovelessness can be imperfect and ungodly. So I conclude that sin is lovelessness, and lovelessness, sin.

*1 John 4:8 KJV and 1 John 4:16 KJV


We know from the Bible that God is NOT love. 1 Cor. 13:5 says: (Love) does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. (emphasis mine)

The god of the Bible does indeed keep a record of "wrongs" and is more than happy to inflict severe suffering on all who don't agree with him.

GOD does not keep a record of wrongs for those HE loves but HE does not love everyone since HE hates the wicked and makes them pay their just penalty.

You miss the mark by accepting the false premise that GOD is love is the definition of HIS whole emotional state. GOD is love is not a strict definition defining the limits of HIS emotions but is a description of HIS general and chosen outlook on HIS creation. It does not mean HE cannot hate, only that HE does not want to hate and will do all HE can to avoid it...but HE does hate the wicked.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:27 pm
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amortalman wrote:
If every individual does not have a "ledger" as you say then who does have a ledger and who does not? Would it be fair of God to judge some and not others?


1. Those without a ledger for judgment are
- HIS elect
- HIS sheep
- the people of HIS kingdom
- the good seed
- those believers NOT condemned for their sins because they believe, put their faith in HIM as per John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.


2. Those with a ledger who are judged are
- the non-elect
- the goats
- the people of the evil one
- the reprobate tares
- those unbelievers condemned ALREADY for their unbelief in the name of HIS Son, John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

All of creation separated themselves into these two groups by their free will decision to put their faith in HIS claims to be our GOD and in HIS Son to be our saviour becoming HIS elect and joining group 1. OR by putting their faith in HIM being a liar and a false god, sinning the unforgivable sin and joining group 2. the non-elect, unbelievers who were condemned for their unbelief on the spot.

IF everyone made their decisions within a full disclosure of the ramifications of each option and those to be judged made their choice knowing that if HE were ever to prove HIS divinity and power then they were going to hell BUT chose to reject HIS claims anyway because they would rather end in hell than in a MARRIAGE WITH HIM in heaven, how is it unjust to 1. convict them of their crime and to pass sentence upon them and 2. to give them what they chose, an existence without HIM for ever!!!???

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:32 am
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[quote="amortalman"]
2ndRateMind wrote:

[Replying to post 18 by amortalman]

Quote:
Not at all sure that's entirely true. I certainly don't believe God keeps 7 billion ledgers, one for each individual on earth, recording our deeds and misdeeds, and at the end of time, will tot them all up like some bean-keeper accountant, and thereby arrive at a final decision as to whether we deserve eternal bliss or damnation. That's just a story we tell to children, to keep them on the right track until they are old enough to understand better.

Best wishes, 2RM.


If it were true there would be a lot more than 7 billion counting all those who have lived and died throughout history. If every individual does not have a "ledger" as you say then who does have a ledger and who does not? Would it be fair of God to judge some and not others? After all, the Bible does say "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment," (Heb. 9:27). Perhaps only women escape judgment.
Angel


Yes, if you count the dead, there would be more ledgers for God to deal with. But, I recall reading somewhere that it is the case that there are more people alive today than have ever lived and died down the course of history. That's a consequence of exponential population growth. So, let us say, for the purposes of argument, that there could be as many as 14 billion ledgers for God to keep track of. Whatever the number, it still seems to me to be a naïve way to interpret God's perfect justice. And justice will be done; of that I have no doubt.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:05 am
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ttruscott wrote:

amortalman wrote:

2ndRateMind wrote:

Quote:
Love is never wrong, because God is love*, and He is perfect. Only lovelessness can be imperfect and ungodly. So I conclude that sin is lovelessness, and lovelessness, sin.

*1 John 4:8 KJV and 1 John 4:16 KJV


We know from the Bible that God is NOT love. 1 Cor. 13:5 says: (Love) does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. (emphasis mine)

The god of the Bible does indeed keep a record of "wrongs" and is more than happy to inflict severe suffering on all who don't agree with him.

GOD does not keep a record of wrongs for those HE loves but HE does not love everyone since HE hates the wicked ...


Just can't agree with any of this. The whole purpose of Jesus' mission on Earth, His crucifixion and resurrection, was to communicate to the world that God loves us, sinners though we all be, impartially and unconditionally. That does not mean justice will not be served, only that there will always be, for all of us, however wicked, the possibility of redemption. At least, that is how I read the New Testament.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:55 pm
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[quote="2ndRateMind"]
[quote="amortalman"]
2ndRateMind wrote:

[Replying to post 18 by amortalman]

Quote:
Not at all sure that's entirely true. I certainly don't believe God keeps 7 billion ledgers, one for each individual on earth, recording our deeds and misdeeds, and at the end of time, will tot them all up like some bean-keeper accountant, and thereby arrive at a final decision as to whether we deserve eternal bliss or damnation. That's just a story we tell to children, to keep them on the right track until they are old enough to understand better.

Best wishes, 2RM.


If it were true there would be a lot more than 7 billion counting all those who have lived and died throughout history. If every individual does not have a "ledger" as you say then who does have a ledger and who does not? Would it be fair of God to judge some and not others? After all, the Bible does say "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment," (Heb. 9:27). Perhaps only women escape judgment.
Angel


Quote:
So, let us say, for the purposes of argument, that there could be as many as 14 billion ledgers for God to keep track of. Whatever the number, it still seems to me to be a naïve way to interpret God's perfect justice.


I don't know about naive, but it is rather strange, isn't it? But then, the whole story is strange.

Quote:
And justice will be done; of that I have no doubt.

Best wishes, 2RM.


And on what basis do you have no doubt?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:13 pm
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[Replying to post 22 by ttruscott]

ttruscott wrote:

"All of creation separated themselves into these two groups by their free will decision to put their faith in HIS claims to be our GOD and in HIS Son to be our saviour becoming HIS elect and joining group 1. OR by putting their faith in HIM being a liar and a false god, sinning the unforgivable sin and joining group 2. the non-elect, unbelievers who were condemned for their unbelief on the spot.

"IF everyone made their decisions within a full disclosure of the ramifications of each option and those to be judged made their choice knowing that if HE were ever to prove HIS divinity and power then they were going to hell BUT chose to reject HIS claims anyway because they would rather end in hell than in a MARRIAGE WITH HIM in heaven, how is it unjust to 1. convict them of their crime and to pass sentence upon them and 2. to give them what they chose, an existence without HIM for ever!!!???"

If everyone made their decisions on the lack if EVIDENCE of a god and used logic, common sense, and proven scientific facts there would be no fear of a supreme being wreaking havoc on earth and throwing people in hell to suffer eternally. I think it's time we lighten up on all this ancient fear-mongering and learn how to live our lives helping one another get along in this often cruel an unjust world. There is no god-judgment, no heaven, and no hell. We make this one life we have either good or bad by our actions toward our fellow-man. Be the best person you can be in this life. It's the only one you know for sure you have. Very Happy

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 27: Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:16 pm
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2ndRateMind wrote:

And justice will be done; of that I have no doubt.


How is that supposed to work. According to Christianity, if Hitler sucked up to Jesus at the last moment, he went to Heaven and gets no punishment. And if Mother Teresa had a bad thought at the last moment, she went to Hell and gets no reward.

There is no possibility of justice under that system. No good acts are rewarded, and no bad acts punished. The only thing that matters is whether you suck up.

Justice doesn't come into it.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 28: Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:26 am
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wiploc wrote:

2ndRateMind wrote:

And justice will be done; of that I have no doubt.


How is that supposed to work. According to Christianity, if Hitler sucked up to Jesus at the last moment, he went to Heaven and gets no punishment. And if Mother Teresa had a bad thought at the last moment, she went to Hell and gets no reward.

There is no possibility of justice under that system. No good acts are rewarded, and no bad acts punished. The only thing that matters is whether you suck up.

Justice doesn't come into it.


If it isn't just, then it isn't true. Just a fairy story, told by clerics to keep their laity in line.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 29: Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:18 pm
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2ndRateMind wrote:

[Replying to post 18 by amortalman]

Not at all sure that's entirely true. I certainly don't believe God keeps 7 billion ledgers, one for each individual on earth, recording our deeds and misdeeds, and at the end of time, will tot them all up like some bean-keeper accountant, and thereby arrive at a final decision as to whether we deserve eternal bliss or damnation. That's just a story we tell to children, to keep them on the right track until they are old enough to understand better.

Best wishes, 2RM.


Out of sheer curiosity, why do you NOT believe this?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 30: Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:25 pm
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rikuoamero wrote:

2ndRateMind wrote:

[Replying to post 18 by amortalman]

Not at all sure that's entirely true. I certainly don't believe God keeps 7 billion ledgers, one for each individual on earth, recording our deeds and misdeeds, and at the end of time, will tot them all up like some bean-keeper accountant, and thereby arrive at a final decision as to whether we deserve eternal bliss or damnation. That's just a story we tell to children, to keep them on the right track until they are old enough to understand better.

Best wishes, 2RM.


Out of sheer curiosity, why do you NOT believe this?


Because it is such an inelegant, complicated solution.

I would rather think that, given the fact that the Greeks first noticed, that virtue builds character, and vice erodes it, all God needs to do to reach judgment in most cases is assess the quality of those characters as they present to Him.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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