Inventing a character with the magical ability to do things

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rikuoamero
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Inventing a character with the magical ability to do things

Post #1

Post by rikuoamero »

In a recent thread of mine, John Human said the following
However, there was continued bleeding, and Ancient Demon knew that Jesus could potentially lose too much blood. So Ancient Demon entered the body of Jesus and made a point of affecting the blood vessels to make them constrict. This had the result of ensuring that Jesus didn’t bleed to death.
So this is a claim. That Jesus didn't die on the cross, that he only appeared to be dead. How did he survive? An "Ancient Demon", apparently invisible to all at the crowd, somehow entered the body of Jesus, and magically constricted the blood vessels, thus preventing a loss of too much blood.
John did not provide evidence to support this claim of his. He might as well have made it all up, but this is what he did. He has a belief that Jesus didn't die, and to support that belief, he imagines a character with all the magical supernatural abilities necessary to accomplish it.
I'd like to ask the site's resident Christians how this is anything different to what they believe. When they say God created the world, created the universe, resurrected Jesus, that Jesus resurrecting is the only viable explanation for the origin of Christianity etc., how is inventing a character with all the magical supernatural abilities but no evidence of those abilities anything different to what John Human did here? If you disbelieve JH about his Ancient Demon, if you scoff at the thought of a supernatural entity casting illusions and deceiving people...how is it you are sure you yourselves are not deceived, or deceiving yourselves?
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Re: Inventing a character with the magical ability to do thi

Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1 by rikuoamero]

I think that Muslims believe Jesus didnt really die so maybe this individual is Muslim. None of us were there at the time so its all a matter of who one chooses to believe. I believe the bible writers who testify Jesus most certainly did die. And rosr again from death (not from a comma), three days later.


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Re: Inventing a character with the magical ability to do thi

Post #3

Post by 1213 »

rikuoamero wrote: ...
I'd like to ask the site's resident Christians how this is anything different to what they believe. When they say God created the world, created the universe, resurrected Jesus, that Jesus resurrecting is the only viable explanation for the origin of Christianity etc., how is inventing a character with all the magical supernatural abilities but no evidence of those abilities anything different to what John Human did here? If you disbelieve JH about his Ancient Demon, if you scoff at the thought of a supernatural entity casting illusions and deceiving people...how is it you are sure you yourselves are not deceived, or deceiving yourselves?
The difference is, my beliefs are not based on explanations I have imagined. I believe what the Bible tells. And one reason why I believe it is that I have enough evidence to believe it. Also, I have no reason to think it is not true what the Bible tells.

If we compare John Humans idea with what the Bible tells, one difference is, Bible is old and supposedly based on witness testimonies, from that era. John Humans idea is apparently modern idea that is based on imagination. I rather choose the witness story, because in my opinion it has better possibility to be correct. John Humans idea is also in my opinion irrational to whole idea of Jesus, which is why I have no reason to accept it. Claims should be in some way logical.

And about deceit, it depends very much of the matter. For example, am I deceived that Jesus is the Messiah (king of Jews)? I have no reason to think so, because I keep Jesus as my king and by Bible definition I can also be counted Jew (disciples of Jesus, “Christians� are counted Jews in the Bible, even if not born Jew).

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Re: Inventing a character with the magical ability to do thi

Post #4

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 3 by 1213]
one reason why I believe it is that I have enough evidence to believe it.
So what evidence do you have of the superpowers Jesus Christ supposedly had. If someone tells me that 2,000 years ago, a man flew by flapping his arms, or that last week a man flew by flapping his arms, I'd still require evidence either way.
one difference is, Bible is old and supposedly based on witness testimonies,
You say supposedly and do not say eyewitness. I approve.
John Humans idea is apparently modern idea that is based on imagination.
While what is in the Bible is not based on imagination?
I rather choose the witness story, because in my opinion it has better possibility to be correct.
Please explain yourself.
John Humans idea is also in my opinion irrational to whole idea of Jesus, which is why I have no reason to accept it.
I don't see how that means it's less likely to be true. The Jesus dying-and-resurrection story is "irrational to the whole idea of Prophet Muhammed", yet I bet that if a Muslim then said that therefore is no reason to believe Jesus died and resurrected, you would say he is incorrect.
In short, what you've said here in this line is that John Human's story contradicts the orthodox Christian story, therefore you think you have no reason to accept John's story. Well no. One story does not win out automatically simply because it is contradicted by another story.
Claims should be in some way logical.
It is logical, at least if one thinks in quote unquote Christian-ese. Christians posit that there is no naturalistic theory for the explanation of the universe's origin, so they default to a god with all the magical powers necessary to create it. Do they show evidence for this god? Nope.
John Human posits that Jesus didn't die, that it was all an illusion. To explain this, he posits an ancient demon with powers of illusion and deception, able to take control of/enter Jesus's body unnoticed and prevent loss of blood. Did he show evidence for this? Nope.
For example, am I deceived that Jesus is the Messiah (king of Jews)? I have no reason to think so, because I keep Jesus as my king and by Bible definition I can also be counted Jew (disciples of Jesus, “Christians� are counted Jews in the Bible, even if not born Jew).
Can a Muslim say something similar to you? "Am I deceived that Muhammed is Allah's Last Prophet? I have no reason to think so, because I keep Muhammed as my prophet and by Quran definition, I can also be counted Muslim"
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Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Inventing a character with the magical ability to do thi

Post #5

Post by 1213 »

rikuoamero wrote: So what evidence do you have of the superpowers Jesus Christ supposedly had.
For me much more important is the words Jesus said. The superpowers were for the people who were with Jesus. And because we have the Bible, Jesus was pretty convincing for them, else I don’t think we would have the Bible.

I think one evidence for Jesus superpowers is that we still have his words, as he said then, and people have not managed to destroy them, even though many have tried.
rikuoamero wrote:
I rather choose the witness story, because in my opinion it has better possibility to be correct.
Please explain yourself.
It is about from where the information is. The witness testimonies in the Bible, are allegedly from people who saw the things. I understand that you probably don’t believe it, but it is not the point in here. The question is in this case only about what the source is. And in the case of the John Humans claim, It doesn’t seem to have anything that could come even close to what Bible has.
rikuoamero wrote:
For example, am I deceived that Jesus is the Messiah (king of Jews)? I have no reason to think so, because I keep Jesus as my king and by Bible definition I can also be counted Jew (disciples of Jesus, “Christians� are counted Jews in the Bible, even if not born Jew).
Can a Muslim say something similar to you? "Am I deceived that Muhammed is Allah's Last Prophet? I have no reason to think so, because I keep Muhammed as my prophet and by Quran definition, I can also be counted Muslim"
But is isn’t it easier to think somebody is king, if some people keep him as their king?

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Re: Inventing a character with the magical ability to do thi

Post #6

Post by ttruscott »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by rikuoamero]

I think that Muslims believe Jesus didnt really die so maybe this individual is Muslim. None of us were there at the time so its all a matter of who one chooses to believe. I believe the bible writers who testify Jesus most certainly did die. And rosr again from death (not from a comma), three days later. JW
This sounds like you believe in His physical resurrection the same as other Christians...is this true? I thought WTS doctrine was His resurrection was a spirit only resurrection.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Inventing a character with the magical ability to do thi

Post #7

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 5 by 1213]
For me much more important is the words Jesus said. The superpowers were for the people who were with Jesus. And because we have the Bible, Jesus was pretty convincing for them, else I don’t think we would have the Bible.
Argumentum ad populum. You keep doing this, over and over on this site. Keep making incredibly simple arguments, that because people believed it, because some people were convinced, therefore it's true.
Why is it you cannot understand the concept of falsehoods? Of liars, legends or cheats? Of exaggerations? Your comment there up above just ignores all those possibilities.
I think one evidence for Jesus superpowers is that we still have his words, as he said then, and people have not managed to destroy them, even though many have tried.
We have the words of the Prophet Muhammed, yet I don't see you believing that he flew on a winged horse.
Just because words and writings exist, doesn't mean what they say is true.
It is about from where the information is. The witness testimonies in the Bible, are allegedly from people who saw the things
Allegedly. Until you show that it is not allegedly, that is all you can say. At least you're being honest about that much.
The question is in this case only about what the source is. And in the case of the John Humans claim, It doesn’t seem to have anything that could come even close to what Bible has.
Why not? John Human actually names his source. It's the Ancient Demon, who was there 2,000 years ago. The Gospel writers don't name their sources.
At least today, you and I can talk to John Human. Can you do that with the authors of Bible books?
But is isn’t it easier to think somebody is king, if some people keep him as their king?
This doesn't make him their king. There are some people who believe that Trump rigged the 2016 US election, and wanted Hilary to win. They say Hilary was or should be their president.
Just because you, or a group of other people, say that Man X is Political Title Y, doesn't make it so for all people. Your logic is that because you believe Jesus to be the Messiah...therefore he is.
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Inventing a character with the magical ability to do thi

Post #8

Post by bjs »

[Replying to post 1 by rikuoamero]

One difference an outside observer might notice is internal consistency.

The “Ancient Demon� response seems to be an ad hoc effort to justify a belief.

In contrast to this, orthodox Christianity seems to be internally consistent. We could argue that it is true or we could argue that it is false, but there does not appear to be anything ad hoc about it.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo

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Re: Inventing a character with the magical ability to do thi

Post #9

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 8 by bjs]
One difference an outside observer might notice is internal consistency.
Agreed. However, are you saying there is internal consistency within Christianity and/or its writings? There isn't. There are numerous denominations, and even within the Bible, consistency is a concept only to be laughed at.
The “Ancient Demon� response seems to be an ad hoc effort to justify a belief.
I have literally been told, on this forum, that Jesus Christ being king of Israel in a theological/spiritual sense is a fulfillment of the Hebrew prophecy from Micah 5...which would of course count as an ad hoc effort to justify the belief, since of course, this claim falls outside the purview of empiricism. Or that the writing that says the ruling scepter will never fall from Judah (paraphrasing from memory) was and is fulfilled, since Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who has existed with God right from the beginning of time and even 'before', never mind the fact that Zedekiah was the last real king of Judah some 600 years before Jesus.

I see plenty of ad hoc efforts from and within Christianity.
In contrast to this, orthodox Christianity seems to be internally consistent.
Which orthodox Christianity? Eastern Orthodox? Roman Catholicism? Lutheranism? Calvinism? Southern Baptist? Mormonism? Jehovah's Witnesses? Seventh-Day Adventists?
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Inventing a character with the magical ability to do thi

Post #10

Post by bjs »

[Replying to rikuoamero]

You will have to explain to me what you think ad hoc is. Under normal definitions an ad hoc fallacy has nothing to do with the falling outside the purview of empiricism.

The traditional definition of an ad hoc fallacy is:
Ad hoc is a phrase (literally, "for this") that describes ideas which are created solely for a specific task and not intended to be generalizable in any way.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ad_hoc

The belief that Jesus is the Messiah who fulfilled the prophesies of the Old Testament is a central belief to all forms of orthodox Christianity: Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant.

So applying this central doctrine to the fifth chapter of Micah would in no way be ad hoc. Rather, it is the application of a doctrine that is intended to be generalized throughout the whole of the OT.



The fact that your opening example is not ad hoc leaves me to ask: In what way do you see Christianity has being ad hoc?

Certainly individual Christians or groups of Christians hold beliefs that not all Christians agree to. Perhaps John’s example about an “ancient demon� is just his personal belief and not an actual doctrine of his faith. If that is so, it means that his argument is ad hoc while his faith on the whole is not.

Do you mean nothing more than that some Christians hold personal beliefs that are different from other Christians – belief that they may even recognize as being personal beliefs that are not essential to their faith? If that is all, then would not make Christian doctrine ad hoc. If you mean more than that, I would ask you to justify your claim.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo

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