Debate with a scientist

[John Human]

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to post 90 by John Human]

... there is no need or reason to counter a groundless fairy tale, except to point it out for what it is.

I agree ... gods of any kind have never been observed or demonstrated to exist in any form, at any time in history. So attributing anything at all to these imaginary entities certainly falls into the category of groundless fairy tales.

[Divine Insight]

[John Human]

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 76 by Clownboat]

This is what has happened with religions. Ultimate power will corrupt ultimately (not just in religion either of course) and there is no more ultimate power than the power those assign to the gods they worship or more precisely, to those that speak on behalf of the gods they worship. The evidence for this is how followers are willing to give their income to those who speak for the gods and even at times commit atrocious acts such as genocide on behalf of those that speak for the gods.

Not to ignore the rest of your post but I think it is summed up here^

I'll be curious to see if you acknowledge that humans have been inventing the gods thoughout recorded time.

I don't think we disagree on most of this, people have long deduced intelligent agency and politicians have long taken advantage of it.

I feel like you are trying to weasel out of acknowledging this very important observation.
Humans have been inventing god concepts for all of recorded history.

I will acknowledge that most gods are argued to be intelligent and that humans have used the gods to take advantage of people, but please do not attempt to sweep the inventing of gods under the rug. Gods being human inventions is very important to this discussion.

I disagree though that religion is inherently the most prone to corruption and abuse of power.

Who are you disagreing with? We could perhaps argue that religion is the most prone to corruption, but no need as I am just discussing where god concepts come from.

As I suspected, no where did you address or even seem to acknowledge that humans have been inventing the gods.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 32 by Divine Insight]

So because we can´t produce any evidence for it, then it is not the case? Most of us can´t remember our past life. This could be because we do not have a past life, but it could also be because it would be frustrating to remember it. Maybe there are other reasons? Lets say I was a pirate in a past life and hid a treasure somewhere...should I be aloud to remember it? It would be nice to remember something like that because I could use the money

I think we should do all that we can for anyone who is suffering.

Please provide evidence or at least observations that we have had past lives.
I would hate to waste time considering a falsehood, so I will await your reply before considering your words here.

In science, we need evidence. This applies no matter if you were a pirate in a past life or not.

I think there is a reason for the lack of observation.

Thank you for admitting that you have no evidence for your claim.
If that changes, please let us know.
Be well.

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 32 by Divine Insight]

So because we can´t produce any evidence for it, then it is not the case? Most of us can´t remember our past life. This could be because we do not have a past life, but it could also be because it would be frustrating to remember it. Maybe there are other reasons? Lets say I was a pirate in a past life and hid a treasure somewhere...should I be aloud to remember it? It would be nice to remember something like that because I could use the money

I think we should do all that we can for anyone who is suffering.

Please provide evidence or at least observations that we have had past lives.
I would hate to waste time considering a falsehood, so I will await your reply before considering your words here.

In science, we need evidence. This applies no matter if you were a pirate in a past life or not.

I think there is a reason for the lack of observation.

Thank you for admitting that you have no evidence for your claim.
If that changes, please let us know.
Be well.

What claim?

Don´t you think there is a reason for the lack of observation/evidence

You think it is because of this and I think it is because of this, right?

I am just saying there could be another reason than the one that you think...

[Divine Insight]

Then perhaps you can recognize that "evolution" is different from "natural selection."

Of course it is. In fact, there is a difference between evolution and the "Theory of Evolution".

Evolution is what is actually happening.

The "Theory of evolution" is the scientific explanation of how evolution occurs. The theory of evolution has proven to be correct. And verified in countless ways. Fossil records are only one of the many pieces of evidence that verify that the theory of evolution is the correct explanation of how evolution occurs. And there are no so-called "missing links", that's a Creationist's invention that has credibility in reality.

As far as theodicy goes, there is no credible theodicy. Theodicy is nothing more that empty apologetics. I've heard all the apologies for theodicy, and none of them have any credibility whatsoever.

Just because religious people can get away with creating subjects of study that some educational institutions will allow to be treated as though they are meaningful doesn't mean that they have any actual validity.

There is no excuse for a truly benevolent omnipotent God to behave as poorly as the fictitious God the ancient Hebrews created. Their God was clearly modeled after their own ignorance and male-chauvinistic tendencies. How anyone can continue to support such an obviously flawed God mythology is beyond me.

There is no credible theodicy. All theodicy amounts to are religious people trying to make excuses for an inexcusable ancient mythology. And they haven't even been able to do that in any convincing or compelling manner.

[John Human]

Humans have been inventing god concepts for all of recorded history.

I'd like to present an alternative view, from post #7 on this thread: viewtopic.php?t=35460

Myles had little fear of the Indians. Myles understood. The Indian who spoke English described. The Indians had lost many people. They had more land than they needed. They had no will to fight. Myles understands, the few Indians were not able to give sufficient (energy) to the demon. This meant that the demon was limited. It could kill. And then it had to wait. The Indians had to give energy through a ceremony that helped the demon. This was what Myles understood to be Pagan religion. Myles did not think that the Indian religion was in service of a god. It was simply practical.

And here's a different take on the general idea (demons among humans, being worshiped as gods), on this other thread: viewtopic.php?t=35478

Chakra Demon understood that there was a new religion. Chakra Demon understood that the new religion took control of an empire. Chakra Demon understood that the empire didn’t survive, but the new religion took control over the men who conquered the empire. Chakra Demon understood that the new religion forbade the use of demons to help people. Chakra Demon understood that the new religion forbade the use of demons as part of worship. Chakra Demon wanted to help. Chakra Demon understood that demons needed to understand this new religion. Chakra Demon went to a city. Chakra Demon didn’t come back until the ancient demon and its followers had been exterminated.

Chakra Demon was able to return. Chakra Demon knew that there was an expedition. This expedition was targeting the village where the ancient demon lived. This was an attempt to destroy the religion. The people of the new religion knew that the demon had to be eliminated. That was the only way that an old religion could be destroyed....

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 32 by Divine Insight]

So because we can´t produce any evidence for it, then it is not the case? Most of us can´t remember our past life. This could be because we do not have a past life, but it could also be because it would be frustrating to remember it. Maybe there are other reasons? Lets say I was a pirate in a past life and hid a treasure somewhere...should I be aloud to remember it? It would be nice to remember something like that because I could use the money

I think we should do all that we can for anyone who is suffering.

Please provide evidence or at least observations that we have had past lives.
I would hate to waste time considering a falsehood, so I will await your reply before considering your words here.

In science, we need evidence. This applies no matter if you were a pirate in a past life or not.

I think there is a reason for the lack of observation.

Thank you for admitting that you have no evidence for your claim.
If that changes, please let us know.
Be well.

What claim?

That we have had past lives.

Don´t you think there is a reason for the lack of observation/evidence

Yes, my guess is because there is nothing to be observed/evidenced.

You think it is because of this and I think it is because of this, right?

This sentence lacks coherence.

I am just saying there could be another reason than the one that you think...

You can think this, but what evidence/observations would make you hypothesis past lives.

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 99 by Clownboat]

Maybe there is no observation/evidence? There could be a reason for the lack of observation/evidence and a reason for the case with James Leininger. We only need one good case, right? Can we do without this case? I think so, but it is nice that there are some who are aloud to remember and a case can be build on it. I do not have all the answers. I can live my life without remembering past lives. Do we all have to remember or is it enugh that one does? Maybe it is a gift to us? And when we have accepted this gift then there will be no need for anyone to remember past lives?