Debate with a scientist

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John Human
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Debate with a scientist

Post #1

Post by John Human »

Back in December and January, I had a debate with a scientist at a forum for medieval genealogists, where people routinely ridicule the thought of directly communicating with deceased ancestors. (For an explanation of communicating with ancestors, see https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/535187/com ... -ancestors)

Toward the end of December, a “scientist and engineer� appeared and initiated a debate. For the very first time, somebody actually tried to refute me instead of the usual fare of contempt and insults. This self-identified scientist made it very clear that he dismissed my lengthy stories from ancestors as hallucinations, because of his reductionist materialist presupposition that any such communication at a distance, without some sort of physical connection, was impossible.

“Reductionist materialism� is but one solution to the so-called mind-body problem that exercised natural philosophers (“scientists�) in the 17th and 1th centuries. Are mind and body two separate things? If so, which one is primary? An overview of the mind-body problem can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_problem

Reductionist materialism means that things like astrology or shamanism or channeling or communicating with ancestors get summarily dismissed as “hallucinations� or “superstition.�

The conclusion of the debate (because the scientist made a point of bowing out without offering any counter-argument) came on Jan. 7. Here is the essential part of what I wrote to the scientist:
You made it clear that you consider mind to be an epiphenomenon of neural activity in the brain, and you go on to say: “To me, the mind is a function of a living brain, meaning that they’re not distinct. In my opinion, there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, like a brain.�

In response to your opinion that there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, the obvious question is, why not? I am reminded of the New York Times declaring that a heavier-than-air flying machine was impossible. Your opinion seems to be unscientific, and serves to block skeptical inquiry. It would also seem to be rigidly atheistic (denying the possibility of a transcendent deity), as opposed to a healthy skepticism when approaching questions that appear to be unknowable. Your position regarding belief in witchcraft, denying that it has anything to do with “truth,� also seems to be arbitrarily rigid and unscientific, opposed to a spirit of skeptical inquiry. However, perhaps you wrote hastily and polemically, and perhaps in general you are able to keep an open mind regarding subjects where you are inclined to strongly doubt claims that violate your pre-existing suppositions about reality.

Please keep in mind that, regarding the mind/body problem, there used to be (and still are) several different approaches, as opposed to the mind-numbing reductionist materialist view that is overwhelmingly prevalent today in science departments. Perhaps Leibniz’s approach was the most esoteric, and he was a renowned scientist and mathematician (as well as a philosopher and diplomat). His view was routinely dismissed but never refuted (as far as I am aware), but Leibniz’s influence simply disappeared from universities after protracted tenure battles in the mid-eighteenth century. However, Leibniz’s view isn’t the only possibility. I am intrigued by the thought that both matter and consciousness are manifestations of something underlying, which is not inconsistent with my own view of reality.

It seems to me that reductionist materialism (your stated belief) fails to explain the all-important phenomenon of human creativity, as measured by our ability to reorganize our environment (as a result of scientific discovery and technological progress) to establish a potential population density orders of magnitude above that of a primitive hunter-gatherer society in the same geographical area. (There is an important corollary here: Once a human society exits the Stone Age and begins using metal as a basic part of the production of food and tools, in the long run we must continue to progress or collapse due to resource depletion, especially regarding the need for progressively more efficient sources of energy. And there is another corollary as well: As a society gets more technologically complex, the minimum area for measuring relative potential population density increases.)

Is this human capability explainable in terms of matter reorganizing itself in ever-more-complex fashion? If you answer “yes� to such a question, the subsidiary question is: how does matter organize itself in ever-more-complex ways (such as the creation of human brains that then come up with the technological breakthroughs and social organization to support ever-higher relative potential population densities)? Does random chance work for you as an answer to this question? If so, isn’t that an arbitrary (and therefore unscientific) theological supposition? Or do you see the inherent logic in positing some form of intelligent design (an argument as old as Plato)? If you accept the principle of intelligent design, it seems to me that, to be consistent, the reductionist materialist view would have to posit an immanent (as opposed to transcendent) intelligence, as with the Spinozistic pantheism that influenced Locke’s followers and arguably influenced Locke himself. But if you go in that direction, where is the “universal mind� that is guiding the formation of human brains capable of creative discovery, and how does it communicate with the matter that comprises such brains? The way I see things, both the “deification of random chance� argument and the supposition of an immanent “divine� creative force have insurmountable problems, leaving some sort of transcendent divinity as the default answer regarding the question of the efficient cause of human creativity, with the final cause being the imperative for humans to participate in the ongoing creation of the universe.
The forum thread where this originally appeared is here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... yqswb4d5WA
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Re: Natural selection explains EXTINCTION, not new species

Post #91

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 90 by John Human]
... there is no need or reason to counter a groundless fairy tale, except to point it out for what it is.
I agree ... gods of any kind have never been observed or demonstrated to exist in any form, at any time in history. So attributing anything at all to these imaginary entities certainly falls into the category of groundless fairy tales.
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Re: Natural selection explains EXTINCTION, not new species

Post #92

Post by Divine Insight »

John Human wrote: With that said, you are clearly ahead of Divine Insight, who persists in the egregious error of conflating “evolution� (the progressive appearance of more advanced or specialized species, as deduced from the fossil record) with “natural selection� (a purported mechanism for how this appearance of new species happens).
I don't need to conflate anything.

Science has explained the natural processes that cause evolution to occur. This is a process that is well understood, especially since the discovery of DNA and precisely how genetics works.

Therefore what you are calling "Natural Selection" is simply a label that describes these natural processes.

I've already exposed how any theories of a purposeful designer fail dramatically.

Any purposeful designer would need to be either extremely inept, or purposefully malicious. A natural process of evolution caused by the well-understood mechanisms of genetic evolution explains everything with nothing left unexplained.

To postulate the existence of a purposeful intervening designer causes extreme problems that cannot be explained away save for claiming that the intervening designer is either extremely inept, or purposefully malicious.

So I have already covered all of this in great detail, while you remain in denial of it to the point where you haven't even addressed these issues at all.

Why would your intervening designing creator do the following:

1. Create many species only to later annihilate them, including several species of hominids?

2. Design and create deadly diseases that will cause great suffering and death to the other objects of his very own creation?

3. Create babies with horrible birth defects?



Apparently you are willing to totally ignore that evolution by natural selection explains why all these events occur.

But there is no explanation for why a purposeful designer would do such demonic things unless the creator itself is demonic or extremely inept.

So where is your explanation for why a proposed purposeful designer would do these things? And why is it that you are so quick to ignore the fact that evolution by natural selection has already explained why all of this occurs with nothing left unexplained?

Clearly evolution by natural selection explains everything perfectly, while your the proposal for an intelligent purposeful creator fails miserably.

You entitled this thread, "Debate with a scientist", yet you haven't been able to offer any rational explanations for your wild speculations. All you've offered thus are are stories of communication with ghosts that you clearly cannot provide evidence to back up your claims.

In short, you have nothing, while the scientists you would like to debate with have already explained everything with nothing left unexplained.

You're clearly not accepting the evidence that the scientists have. You reject it out-of-hand without any rational reasons for having done so.

While your proposed theories fail at every turn.
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Re: Natural selection explains EXTINCTION, not new species

Post #93

Post by John Human »

Divine Insight wrote:
John Human wrote: With that said, you are clearly ahead of Divine Insight, who persists in the egregious error of conflating “evolution� (the progressive appearance of more advanced or specialized species, as deduced from the fossil record) with “natural selection� (a purported mechanism for how this appearance of new species happens).
I don't need to conflate anything.
Then perhaps you can recognize that "evolution" is different from "natural selection."
Science has explained the natural processes that cause evolution to occur. This is a process that is well understood, especially since the discovery of DNA and precisely how genetics works.
Just who is this "science"? And who are you to speak for "science"? Please provide a source for you point of view. Here's a source -- the first of a series of articles, that seems to me to be well-written: "Fact-Checking Wikipedia on Common Descent" at https://evolutionnews.org/2011/10/wikip ... descent_p/ This website is associated with the "Discovery Institute," which is some sort of Christian think-tank. So I imagine that their predisposition will be something that you and other skeptics/atheists might be willing to sniff out and criticize. And on the other hand, this series on evolution is lucidly written. Do you notice any factual errors? The point here is to have some real evidence to examine and weigh, as opposed to sweeping, bald assertions.

I've already exposed how any theories of a purposeful designer fail dramatically.
No, you've repeatedly repeated your personal take on the philosophical/theological problem of "theodicy," as I brought up in post #51, but you didn't engage with what I said. A discussion of theodicy is beyond the scope of this thread, in my opinion, and properly belongs in either the Philosophy or Christian Apologetics sub-forum. For you to repeatedly bring your off-topic opinion on this thread like a club, without engaging with what I wrote in post #51, seems to be inappropriate.
You're clearly not accepting the evidence that the scientists have. You reject it out-of-hand without any rational reasons for having done so.
You appear to be unaware about what evidence scientists do and do not have regarding the appearance of new species. Once again, I provided (above, in this post), a link to a discussion of the evidence for evolution. I do not present that author's views of my own, and I have not read the entire series of articles.
You and others are welcome to share anything from those articles that you disagree with. I might actually agree with you.
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"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI

"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0

"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]

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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #94

Post by Clownboat »

Guy Threepwood wrote: [Replying to post 76 by Clownboat]
This is what has happened with religions. Ultimate power will corrupt ultimately (not just in religion either of course) and there is no more ultimate power than the power those assign to the gods they worship or more precisely, to those that speak on behalf of the gods they worship. The evidence for this is how followers are willing to give their income to those who speak for the gods and even at times commit atrocious acts such as genocide on behalf of those that speak for the gods.
Not to ignore the rest of your post but I think it is summed up here^
I'll be curious to see if you acknowledge that humans have been inventing the gods thoughout recorded time.
I don't think we disagree on most of this, people have long deduced intelligent agency and politicians have long taken advantage of it.
I feel like you are trying to weasel out of acknowledging this very important observation.
Humans have been inventing god concepts for all of recorded history.

I will acknowledge that most gods are argued to be intelligent and that humans have used the gods to take advantage of people, but please do not attempt to sweep the inventing of gods under the rug. Gods being human inventions is very important to this discussion.
I disagree though that religion is inherently the most prone to corruption and abuse of power.
Who are you disagreing with? We could perhaps argue that religion is the most prone to corruption, but no need as I am just discussing where god concepts come from.

As I suspected, no where did you address or even seem to acknowledge that humans have been inventing the gods.
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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #95

Post by Clownboat »

Waterfall wrote:
Clownboat wrote:
Waterfall wrote: [Replying to post 32 by Divine Insight]

So because we can´t produce any evidence for it, then it is not the case? Most of us can´t remember our past life. This could be because we do not have a past life, but it could also be because it would be frustrating to remember it. Maybe there are other reasons? Lets say I was a pirate in a past life and hid a treasure somewhere...should I be aloud to remember it? It would be nice to remember something like that because I could use the money ;-)

I think we should do all that we can for anyone who is suffering.
Please provide evidence or at least observations that we have had past lives.
I would hate to waste time considering a falsehood, so I will await your reply before considering your words here.

In science, we need evidence. This applies no matter if you were a pirate in a past life or not.
I think there is a reason for the lack of observation.
Thank you for admitting that you have no evidence for your claim.
If that changes, please let us know.
Be well.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #96

Post by Waterfall »

Clownboat wrote:
Waterfall wrote:
Clownboat wrote:
Waterfall wrote: [Replying to post 32 by Divine Insight]

So because we can´t produce any evidence for it, then it is not the case? Most of us can´t remember our past life. This could be because we do not have a past life, but it could also be because it would be frustrating to remember it. Maybe there are other reasons? Lets say I was a pirate in a past life and hid a treasure somewhere...should I be aloud to remember it? It would be nice to remember something like that because I could use the money ;-)

I think we should do all that we can for anyone who is suffering.
Please provide evidence or at least observations that we have had past lives.
I would hate to waste time considering a falsehood, so I will await your reply before considering your words here.

In science, we need evidence. This applies no matter if you were a pirate in a past life or not.
I think there is a reason for the lack of observation.
Thank you for admitting that you have no evidence for your claim.
If that changes, please let us know.
Be well.

What claim?

Don´t you think there is a reason for the lack of observation/evidence ;)

You think it is because of this and I think it is because of this, right?

I am just saying there could be another reason than the one that you think...

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Re: Natural selection explains EXTINCTION, not new species

Post #97

Post by Divine Insight »

John Human wrote: Then perhaps you can recognize that "evolution" is different from "natural selection."
Of course it is. In fact, there is a difference between evolution and the "Theory of Evolution".

Evolution is what is actually happening.

The "Theory of evolution" is the scientific explanation of how evolution occurs. The theory of evolution has proven to be correct. And verified in countless ways. Fossil records are only one of the many pieces of evidence that verify that the theory of evolution is the correct explanation of how evolution occurs. And there are no so-called "missing links", that's a Creationist's invention that has credibility in reality.

As far as theodicy goes, there is no credible theodicy. Theodicy is nothing more that empty apologetics. I've heard all the apologies for theodicy, and none of them have any credibility whatsoever.

Just because religious people can get away with creating subjects of study that some educational institutions will allow to be treated as though they are meaningful doesn't mean that they have any actual validity.

There is no excuse for a truly benevolent omnipotent God to behave as poorly as the fictitious God the ancient Hebrews created. Their God was clearly modeled after their own ignorance and male-chauvinistic tendencies. How anyone can continue to support such an obviously flawed God mythology is beyond me.

There is no credible theodicy. All theodicy amounts to are religious people trying to make excuses for an inexcusable ancient mythology. And they haven't even been able to do that in any convincing or compelling manner.
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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #98

Post by John Human »

Clownboat wrote: Humans have been inventing god concepts for all of recorded history.
I'd like to present an alternative view, from post #7 on this thread: viewtopic.php?t=35460
Myles had little fear of the Indians. Myles understood. The Indian who spoke English described. The Indians had lost many people. They had more land than they needed. They had no will to fight. Myles understands, the few Indians were not able to give sufficient (energy) to the demon. This meant that the demon was limited. It could kill. And then it had to wait. The Indians had to give energy through a ceremony that helped the demon. This was what Myles understood to be Pagan religion. Myles did not think that the Indian religion was in service of a god. It was simply practical.
And here's a different take on the general idea (demons among humans, being worshiped as gods), on this other thread: viewtopic.php?t=35478
Chakra Demon understood that there was a new religion. Chakra Demon understood that the new religion took control of an empire. Chakra Demon understood that the empire didn’t survive, but the new religion took control over the men who conquered the empire. Chakra Demon understood that the new religion forbade the use of demons to help people. Chakra Demon understood that the new religion forbade the use of demons as part of worship. Chakra Demon wanted to help. Chakra Demon understood that demons needed to understand this new religion. Chakra Demon went to a city. Chakra Demon didn’t come back until the ancient demon and its followers had been exterminated.

Chakra Demon was able to return. Chakra Demon knew that there was an expedition. This expedition was targeting the village where the ancient demon lived. This was an attempt to destroy the religion. The people of the new religion knew that the demon had to be eliminated. That was the only way that an old religion could be destroyed....

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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #99

Post by Clownboat »

Waterfall wrote:
Clownboat wrote:
Waterfall wrote:
Clownboat wrote:
Waterfall wrote:
[Replying to post 32 by Divine Insight]

So because we can´t produce any evidence for it, then it is not the case? Most of us can´t remember our past life. This could be because we do not have a past life, but it could also be because it would be frustrating to remember it. Maybe there are other reasons? Lets say I was a pirate in a past life and hid a treasure somewhere...should I be aloud to remember it? It would be nice to remember something like that because I could use the money ;-)

I think we should do all that we can for anyone who is suffering.


Please provide evidence or at least observations that we have had past lives.
I would hate to waste time considering a falsehood, so I will await your reply before considering your words here.

In science, we need evidence. This applies no matter if you were a pirate in a past life or not.

I think there is a reason for the lack of observation.

Thank you for admitting that you have no evidence for your claim.
If that changes, please let us know.
Be well.


What claim?

That we have had past lives.
Don´t you think there is a reason for the lack of observation/evidence ;)

Yes, my guess is because there is nothing to be observed/evidenced.
You think it is because of this and I think it is because of this, right?

This sentence lacks coherence.
I am just saying there could be another reason than the one that you think...

You can think this, but what evidence/observations would make you hypothesis past lives.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #100

Post by Waterfall »

[Replying to post 99 by Clownboat]

Maybe there is no observation/evidence? There could be a reason for the lack of observation/evidence and a reason for the case with James Leininger. We only need one good case, right? Can we do without this case? I think so, but it is nice that there are some who are aloud to remember and a case can be build on it. I do not have all the answers. I can live my life without remembering past lives. Do we all have to remember or is it enugh that one does? Maybe it is a gift to us? And when we have accepted this gift then there will be no need for anyone to remember past lives?

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