When, the true meaning of the Passover was to protect the first born of the Israelites from the death angel, which passed through Egypt. The eating of a meal had little to do with this reality…Except, what to do with the lambs, which would be killed! Yet, the lambs haven't been able to be killed, since about 70 A.D. (no temple), then what's the purpose? Even, Christianity and the N.T. suggests that there is a "connection" between the Passover and the death of the Christ.
So, is there a benefit for both Jews and Christians to observe the Passover? And, if so, what is it?
Why is the Passover still observed?
Moderator: Moderators
Re: Why is the Passover still observed?
Post #22[Replying to post 16 by JehovahsWitness]
This forum is also a debate site…Where, counterarguments are encouraged and quite frankly, required for a successful site. Since, I'm not concerned with the acceptance of my opinions or the winning of an argument, my rebuttals should be looked upon as "thoughts" for consideration only, unless they would be against the rules. In Jeremiah 8:8-10, God declares that the false pen of the scribe works falsehoods and more.
However, to show that a commemorative ceremony centered on the death of the Christ being a recorded direct command attributed to the Christ is questionable.
Consider this:
One of the verses, which is claimed to be authentic, to your position, is 1 Corinthians 11:26. Yet, this verse is not a direct command by the Christ. But, would be attributed to Paul's thoughts and not the Christ…Also, performing a review of the statement: you proclaim the Lord's death till he comes, reveals that the Greek word "shew" (G2605) translated into the English word "proclaim" refers to preaching, declaring, teaching, and speaking all these publicly…Not, in a private commemorative ceremony.
The next verse was Luke 22:19. This verse only makes reference to a remembrance of the Christ! There is no implication of a private commemorative ceremony. Where, the references in Matthew 26 and Mark 14 do not even allude to the idea of a remembrance and John doesn't even mention the story at all…Does this imply that you can't do this, no it doesn't!
Therefore, there can be a huge difference between the authenticity of a bible verse and what that verse has been "interpreted" to mean…The difference isn't always reliable…
The writer of 1 Corinthians 11:26, seems to be the same writer of 2 Timothy 2:8, where this verse claims that we should "remember" (G3421) or to be mindful of, to call to mind and to make mention of the Christ being raised from the dead. However, many reject this statement as being one, which suggests that a private commemorative ceremony is commanded…Again, it is how this verse is "interpreted" that rules the issue. Some, see it one way, others a different way.
In 2 Timothy 4:3-4, it is recorded that a time will come, when sound doctrine will not be adhered to, but according to one's own desires. Where, it seems that many could use this to label myself. However, in Luke 6:26 (John 15:19), the Christ states: Woe unto you, when men speak well of you! This and several other statements were addressed to the disciples of the Christ.
So, can we acknowledge the death of the Christ and reject the more important resurrection of the Christ (1 Cor. 15:16-18), no I think not…Should, we not remember all the love that the Christ has shown to mankind? Of course, we should. Where, in Mark 12:26-27, the Christ states that God is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living…
Hopefully, this will (also) satisfy your request included in post 17.
JehvoahsWitness wrote:Yes well we are in TD&D forum and since here the bible is authorative and simply questioning a passages authenticity is not an acceptable counterarugument here, I am uninterested in addressing what you perceive in its recorded "problems" with scripture. As it stands, a commemorative ceremony centred on his death is a recorded direct command attributed to Christ in the bible canon.
This forum is also a debate site…Where, counterarguments are encouraged and quite frankly, required for a successful site. Since, I'm not concerned with the acceptance of my opinions or the winning of an argument, my rebuttals should be looked upon as "thoughts" for consideration only, unless they would be against the rules. In Jeremiah 8:8-10, God declares that the false pen of the scribe works falsehoods and more.
However, to show that a commemorative ceremony centered on the death of the Christ being a recorded direct command attributed to the Christ is questionable.
Consider this:
One of the verses, which is claimed to be authentic, to your position, is 1 Corinthians 11:26. Yet, this verse is not a direct command by the Christ. But, would be attributed to Paul's thoughts and not the Christ…Also, performing a review of the statement: you proclaim the Lord's death till he comes, reveals that the Greek word "shew" (G2605) translated into the English word "proclaim" refers to preaching, declaring, teaching, and speaking all these publicly…Not, in a private commemorative ceremony.
The next verse was Luke 22:19. This verse only makes reference to a remembrance of the Christ! There is no implication of a private commemorative ceremony. Where, the references in Matthew 26 and Mark 14 do not even allude to the idea of a remembrance and John doesn't even mention the story at all…Does this imply that you can't do this, no it doesn't!
Therefore, there can be a huge difference between the authenticity of a bible verse and what that verse has been "interpreted" to mean…The difference isn't always reliable…
The writer of 1 Corinthians 11:26, seems to be the same writer of 2 Timothy 2:8, where this verse claims that we should "remember" (G3421) or to be mindful of, to call to mind and to make mention of the Christ being raised from the dead. However, many reject this statement as being one, which suggests that a private commemorative ceremony is commanded…Again, it is how this verse is "interpreted" that rules the issue. Some, see it one way, others a different way.
In 2 Timothy 4:3-4, it is recorded that a time will come, when sound doctrine will not be adhered to, but according to one's own desires. Where, it seems that many could use this to label myself. However, in Luke 6:26 (John 15:19), the Christ states: Woe unto you, when men speak well of you! This and several other statements were addressed to the disciples of the Christ.
So, can we acknowledge the death of the Christ and reject the more important resurrection of the Christ (1 Cor. 15:16-18), no I think not…Should, we not remember all the love that the Christ has shown to mankind? Of course, we should. Where, in Mark 12:26-27, the Christ states that God is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living…
Hopefully, this will (also) satisfy your request included in post 17.
Post #23
For Catholics and most Christians:brianbbs67 wrote: My big question on this one is, where do we get our authority to change anything ?
First, Jesus Christ is God incarnate.
That's important because that makes Him the boss. He's the one with all the authority.
Next, Jesus Christ established an organization and gave that organization permission to settle things with His authority.
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Finally, He fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies and then established a New Covenant which He then sent the Church out to enforce:
Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
I hope that helps.
Re: Why is the Passover still observed?
Post #24If that is so, why are you interested in defending them? If you were not concerned about anyone accepting them, you would simply ignore any and all responses.FWI wrote: [Replying to post 16 by JehovahsWitness]
This forum is also a debate site…Where, counterarguments are encouraged and quite frankly, required for a successful site. Since, I'm not concerned with the acceptance of my opinions or the winning of an argument, my rebuttals should be looked upon as "thoughts" for consideration only, unless they would be against the rules.
In Jeremiah 8:8-10, God declares that the false pen of the scribe works falsehoods and more.
I'm not sure what that has to do with the topic.
Why would you assume that Jesus Christ did not command this, since the man who learned directly from Christ is practicing this and explaining it's meaning to his followers?However, to show that a commemorative ceremony centered on the death of the Christ being a recorded direct command attributed to the Christ is questionable.
Not to St. Paul alone, however. We believe in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. And furthermore, since St. Paul notes that this was knowledge was handed to him by Christ, it can't be said that he simply whipped it up in a vacuum. It is obvious that either Jesus Taught it to him. Or, he is Teaching it based upon Jesus' prior Teaching.Consider this:
One of the verses, which is claimed to be authentic, to your position, is 1 Corinthians 11:26. Yet, this verse is not a direct command by the Christ. But, would be attributed to Paul's thoughts and not the Christ…
First error, the celebration of the Eucharist is rarely in a private commemorative ceremony. It is meant to be proclaimed out loud to the community of believers.Also, performing a review of the statement: you proclaim the Lord's death till he comes, reveals that the Greek word "shew" (G2605) translated into the English word "proclaim" refers to preaching, declaring, teaching, and speaking all these publicly…Not, in a private commemorative ceremony.
Next, it also means "celebrate". That ties in directly with St. Paul's instruction.
Agreed. Nothing private about it. It is the Lord's gathering. The Lord's Passover.The next verse was Luke 22:19. This verse only makes reference to a remembrance of the Christ! There is no implication of a private commemorative ceremony.
Ok.Where, the references in Matthew 26 and Mark 14 do not even allude to the idea of a remembrance and John doesn't even mention the story at all…Does this imply that you can't do this, no it doesn't!
You're tying yourself in knots because you don't have an objective source upon which to compare your interpretation of the Scripture.Therefore, there can be a huge difference between the authenticity of a bible verse and what that verse has been "interpreted" to mean…The difference isn't always reliable…
And you have a bunch of people who have no objective anchor upon which to base their interpretations, arguing about their personal preferences.The writer of 1 Corinthians 11:26, seems to be the same writer of 2 Timothy 2:8, where this verse claims that we should "remember" (G3421) or to be mindful of, to call to mind and to make mention of the Christ being raised from the dead. However, many reject this statement as being one, which suggests that a private commemorative ceremony is commanded…Again, it is how this verse is "interpreted" that rules the issue. Some, see it one way, others a different way.
....snip…. I foreshortened your message since I believe I see where its going.
The difference between the way you and others interpret Scripture and the way the Catholic Church Teaches Scripture is that we recognize and continue to practice the Traditions of Jesus Christ. These Traditions are the foundation of the New Testament and give us an understanding of the Word of God.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/113.htm.
Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church").
Post #25
De Maria wrote:If that is so, why are you interested in defending them? If you were not concerned about anyone accepting them, you would simply ignore any and all responses.
Defending the truth has no requirement to convert or convince others. It is just a means to eliminate "the attempt of claiming ignorance" to God's truth, when the resurrection of the dead occurs.
De Maria wrote:I'm not sure what that has to do with the topic.
JW claimed (in post 16) that questioning the authenticity of the bible is not an acceptable counterargument. So, I just introduced a bible verse, where God claims that the authenticity of the bible should be questioned…
De Maria wrote:Why would you assume that Jesus Christ did not command this, since the man who learned directly from Christ is practicing this and explaining it's meaning to his followers?
Well, I'm not assuming…This presumed command has no support from any other bible writers. So, to suggest that the Christ would not inspire Peter (the head of the church, at the time) or any other apostle to also record such a command is surely unlikely…
De Maria wrote:Not to St. Paul alone, however. We believe in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. And furthermore, since St. Paul notes that this was knowledge was handed to him by Christ, it can't be said that he simply whipped it up in a vacuum. It is obvious that either Jesus Taught it to him. Or, he is Teaching it based upon Jesus' prior Teaching.
Sorry, but this belief seem to be obvious only to those who adhere to it, not everyone. As stated above, the Christ wouldn't inform "only" Paul of such a command and not inspire others to record it, as well…Therefore, without biblical collaborations, these comments are just opinions.
De Maria wrote:First error, the celebration of the Eucharist is rarely in a private commemorative ceremony. It is meant to be proclaimed out loud to the community of believers. Next, it also means "celebrate". That ties in directly with St. Paul's instruction.
Since, taking the communion (Eucharist) requires several mandates, these would be considered private for the believer. The truth is that only under certain conditions can a "believer" be involved. Yet, even when these conditions are met, the actual taking of communion is within the walls of a church. This is not how the Greek work for "proclaim" is being used. So, it seems that man has instituted these types of celebrations on their own authority and not that of a written command in the bible.
The writer of 1 Corinthians 11:26, seems to be the same writer of 2 Timothy 2:8, where this verse claims that we should "remember" (G3421) or to be mindful of, to call to mind and to make mention of the Christ being raised from the dead. However, many reject this statement as being one, which suggests that a private commemorative ceremony is commanded…Again, it is how this verse is "interpreted" that rules the issue. Some, see it one way, others a different way.
De Maria wrote:And you have a bunch of people who have no objective anchor upon which to base their interpretations, arguing about their personal preferences.
Yet, it is the Catholic Church leadership, which authorizes that Paul wrote both: 1 Corinthians and 2 Timothy. It is also understood that this group had complete control of the contents of the N.T. from about the fourth century A.D. through about the fourteenth century A.D., when it was released to the general public…
De Maria wrote:The difference between the way you and others interpret Scripture and the way the Catholic Church Teaches Scripture is that we recognize and continue to practice the Traditions of Jesus Christ. These Traditions are the foundation of the New Testament and give us an understanding of the Word of God.
The problem here is that almost all religious group claim the same thing, in one way or another…
