Debate with a scientist

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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John Human
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Debate with a scientist

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Post by John Human »

Back in December and January, I had a debate with a scientist at a forum for medieval genealogists, where people routinely ridicule the thought of directly communicating with deceased ancestors. (For an explanation of communicating with ancestors, see https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/535187/com ... -ancestors)

Toward the end of December, a “scientist and engineer� appeared and initiated a debate. For the very first time, somebody actually tried to refute me instead of the usual fare of contempt and insults. This self-identified scientist made it very clear that he dismissed my lengthy stories from ancestors as hallucinations, because of his reductionist materialist presupposition that any such communication at a distance, without some sort of physical connection, was impossible.

“Reductionist materialism� is but one solution to the so-called mind-body problem that exercised natural philosophers (“scientists�) in the 17th and 1th centuries. Are mind and body two separate things? If so, which one is primary? An overview of the mind-body problem can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_problem

Reductionist materialism means that things like astrology or shamanism or channeling or communicating with ancestors get summarily dismissed as “hallucinations� or “superstition.�

The conclusion of the debate (because the scientist made a point of bowing out without offering any counter-argument) came on Jan. 7. Here is the essential part of what I wrote to the scientist:
You made it clear that you consider mind to be an epiphenomenon of neural activity in the brain, and you go on to say: “To me, the mind is a function of a living brain, meaning that they’re not distinct. In my opinion, there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, like a brain.�

In response to your opinion that there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, the obvious question is, why not? I am reminded of the New York Times declaring that a heavier-than-air flying machine was impossible. Your opinion seems to be unscientific, and serves to block skeptical inquiry. It would also seem to be rigidly atheistic (denying the possibility of a transcendent deity), as opposed to a healthy skepticism when approaching questions that appear to be unknowable. Your position regarding belief in witchcraft, denying that it has anything to do with “truth,� also seems to be arbitrarily rigid and unscientific, opposed to a spirit of skeptical inquiry. However, perhaps you wrote hastily and polemically, and perhaps in general you are able to keep an open mind regarding subjects where you are inclined to strongly doubt claims that violate your pre-existing suppositions about reality.

Please keep in mind that, regarding the mind/body problem, there used to be (and still are) several different approaches, as opposed to the mind-numbing reductionist materialist view that is overwhelmingly prevalent today in science departments. Perhaps Leibniz’s approach was the most esoteric, and he was a renowned scientist and mathematician (as well as a philosopher and diplomat). His view was routinely dismissed but never refuted (as far as I am aware), but Leibniz’s influence simply disappeared from universities after protracted tenure battles in the mid-eighteenth century. However, Leibniz’s view isn’t the only possibility. I am intrigued by the thought that both matter and consciousness are manifestations of something underlying, which is not inconsistent with my own view of reality.

It seems to me that reductionist materialism (your stated belief) fails to explain the all-important phenomenon of human creativity, as measured by our ability to reorganize our environment (as a result of scientific discovery and technological progress) to establish a potential population density orders of magnitude above that of a primitive hunter-gatherer society in the same geographical area. (There is an important corollary here: Once a human society exits the Stone Age and begins using metal as a basic part of the production of food and tools, in the long run we must continue to progress or collapse due to resource depletion, especially regarding the need for progressively more efficient sources of energy. And there is another corollary as well: As a society gets more technologically complex, the minimum area for measuring relative potential population density increases.)

Is this human capability explainable in terms of matter reorganizing itself in ever-more-complex fashion? If you answer “yes� to such a question, the subsidiary question is: how does matter organize itself in ever-more-complex ways (such as the creation of human brains that then come up with the technological breakthroughs and social organization to support ever-higher relative potential population densities)? Does random chance work for you as an answer to this question? If so, isn’t that an arbitrary (and therefore unscientific) theological supposition? Or do you see the inherent logic in positing some form of intelligent design (an argument as old as Plato)? If you accept the principle of intelligent design, it seems to me that, to be consistent, the reductionist materialist view would have to posit an immanent (as opposed to transcendent) intelligence, as with the Spinozistic pantheism that influenced Locke’s followers and arguably influenced Locke himself. But if you go in that direction, where is the “universal mind� that is guiding the formation of human brains capable of creative discovery, and how does it communicate with the matter that comprises such brains? The way I see things, both the “deification of random chance� argument and the supposition of an immanent “divine� creative force have insurmountable problems, leaving some sort of transcendent divinity as the default answer regarding the question of the efficient cause of human creativity, with the final cause being the imperative for humans to participate in the ongoing creation of the universe.
The forum thread where this originally appeared is here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... yqswb4d5WA
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Post #141

Post by Clownboat »

mgb wrote:
Clownboat wrote: What is the evidence for this?
See Origen of Alexandria.
"His family was devoutly Christian, and likely highly educated; for his father, who died a martyr, made sure that Origen was schooled not only in biblical studies, but in Hellenistic education as well."
- Since when should we look to the indoctrinated for truth? Doesn't get much more biased than that.

"Since there were no non-Gnostic Christian theological systems in his day, it was up to Origen to formulate one."
- And now we have motive.

"What are now souls (psukhê) began as minds, and through boredom or distraction grew "cold" (psukhesthai) as they moved away from the "divine warmth" (On First Principles 2.8.3). Thus departing from God, they came to be clothed in bodies, at first of "a fine ethereal and invisible nature," but later, as souls fell further away from God, their bodies changed "from a fine, ethereal and invisible body to a body of a coarser and more solid state."
- Amazing that he had such knowledge! It is more likely that he made this up then actually having this unknowable knowledge.

"Origen did not believe in the eternal suffering of sinners in hell."
- Well crap! Where to place our fath? Origen or the Bible?

"Origen was unable to conceive of a God who would create souls that were capable of dissolving into the oblivion of evil (non-being) for all eternity."
- I wonder what other ideas he was able to conceive and write about?

"Origen was an innovator in an era when innovation, for Christians, was a luxury ill-afforded. He drew upon pagan philosophy in an effort to elucidate the Christian faith in a manner acceptable to intellectuals, and he succeeded in converting many gifted pagan students of philosophy to his faith."

in·no·va·tor
/ˈinəˌv�dər/
noun
a person who introduces new methods, ideas, or products.

- No assurances that he had knowledge that escapes the rest of humanity.

https://www.iep.utm.edu/origen-of-alexandria/
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Post #142

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 135 by mgb]
But atheists use this literalism to denigrate religion.


Some atheists don't denigrate religion and have no problem if other people practice religion ... they simply don't believe that gods exist. That is my position, but I will challenge someone who tries to claim that certain religious myths are compatible with modern science when science has positively disproven the myth (ie. the literal interpretation of it, such as as the creation myth of Genesis, Noah's flood, etc.). And there are many Christians and Christian organizations such as AIG who go to great lengths to defend the literal interpretations by pushing bad pseudoscience in an attempt to show that the biblical stories are consistent with science when they clearly are not. These are the people I have the most trouble with and will argue with, but that is not denigrating their religion ... it is denigrating their efforts at butchering science to support their religious views.

Once you move away from literal interpretations it all reduces to personal opinion, and pure subjectivity. In that case what use is it if you can interpret it however you like? How important can the source and the message be if things are so vague and open to interpretation?
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Post #143

Post by mgb »

DrNoGods wrote:I will challenge someone who tries to claim that certain religious myths are compatible with modern science when science has positively disproven the myth (ie. the literal interpretation of it, such as as the creation myth of Genesis, Noah's flood, etc.).
That's fine with me (there is some evidence for the flood but I think the bible story of it has some adornments. I don't, of course, take it literally.)

Religion begins with revelation; with God inspiring certain people like Abraham, Lao Tzu, Buddha, Moses etc. But human beings build a mythology around revelation and turn it into religion and the exact words of revelation are lost. This is how theology and myth evolve.

But myth is nevertheless useful in a practical way. It is a kind of packaging for truth; it is the 'box' that truth comes in, so to speak. It is also useful because human beings are naturally drawn to myth. They can identify with it more easily than abstract truths. Myth may be an older language than the written word.

One has to appreciate the practical value of myth and it has served a purpose down through ages. It gives people a context in which to practice religion. Religion is not uncorrupted truth, but truth is within religion.

Spiritual truth is not an abstraction like mathematical truth or scientific truth. These are primitive and spiritual truth is far more evolved than truths concerning material science.

What then, is spiritual truth if it cannot be formulated in a 'testable' way and if the human intellect is not able to reach it (because it can't)? And if we cannot achieve truth by our own intellectual efforts how are we to know it?

We cannot know truth by our intellect. It must be given to us by God or by someone who has been given it. Truth must come to us from outside ourselves. There is no other way.

Spiritual truth is a way of life, not an abstraction. The Tao or The Way or right living, as the Buddhists call it, leads to truth. Truth is a true perception of the world as it really is. It is a truthful vision of reality and of the world and that vision includes God. It is pointless asking for proof. One has to see for oneself. Or rather, be made to see. It is certainly not something that can be resolved on an internet forum - that's just for testing ideas.

And there are many Christians and Christian organizations such as AIG who go to great lengths to defend the literal interpretations by pushing bad pseudoscience in an attempt to show that the biblical stories are consistent with science when they clearly are not. These are the people I have the most trouble with and will argue with, but that is not denigrating their religion ... it is denigrating their efforts at butchering science to support their religious views.
It hardly matters. We have reached the end of an age and everything is going to change, including religion, because the old religion has served its purpose.
Once you move away from literal interpretations it all reduces to personal opinion, and pure subjectivity. In that case what use is it if you can interpret it however you like? How important can the source and the message be if things are so vague and open to interpretation?
The mythology is only an echo of truth. Religious and non religious people should understand this. It is not a question of 'pure subjectivity' it is a question of seeing the world in the right way. Truth is closer to seeing than it is to abstract mentalism. Did you ever hear someone, when they resolve a problem, saying 'Ah, now is see'? Look and see.

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