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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Wed May 15, 2019 8:39 pm
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Good reasons to believe – or to doubt

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Good reasons to believe – or to doubt

Consider: A reasonably intelligent, informed, educated person who is truly neutral or undecided regarding belief in God asks you to give them:

Good reasons to believe that the Bible God exists

OR

Good reasons to doubt the existence of the Bible God



Supporting information would be helpful

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Thu May 16, 2019 8:03 am
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Re: Good reasons to believe – or to doubt

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[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

I'd say we'd have good evidence for the Bible god if Christians could show us the risen Christ or if they could calm storms or restore amputated limbs.

Evidence that the Bible god doesn't exist would include what we know about history and astronomy and Christianity itself. The Bible god came much later than other gods and was surely derived from those gods. We also know that stars and planets form naturally with no gods required. Prayer doesn't work, and the Christian religion is full of corruption and chicanery. Generally, almost any evidence that we would expect if there is no Bible god is the evidence we have.

Since the evidence tilts toward the stance that there is no Bible god, the wise thing to do is recognize the fact that there is no Bible god. You can believe in him if you wish, but you play the fool if you do.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Thu May 16, 2019 10:41 am
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Re: Good reasons to believe – or to doubt

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Zzyzx wrote:

...Consider: A reasonably intelligent, informed, educated person who is truly neutral or undecided regarding belief in God asks you to give them:

Good reasons to believe that the Bible God exists
...


I could give reasons why I believe, and he could then decide are they good or not. The existence of this world itself is for me reason to believe, because I don’t think there is any intelligent reason to think all this could come by chance. And reason why I believe what the Bible tells is, that it is accurate about what it tells about this world and people.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Thu May 16, 2019 11:15 am
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Re: Good reasons to believe – or to doubt

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1213 wrote:
I could give reasons why I believe, and he could then decide are they good or not. The existence of this world itself is for me reason to believe, because I don’t think there is any intelligent reason to think all this could come by chance.


Can you rule out any possible reasons for the existence of the cosmos that don't involve any gods or magic? As science progresses, I think it may find a nontheistic explanation for existence.

Quote:
And reason why I believe what the Bible tells is, that it is accurate about what it tells about this world and people.


Can you elaborate why you think the Bible is accurate about the world and people? It seems to me that "accuracy" doesn't require any gods. I'm accurate all the time, and I'm not a god.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Fri May 17, 2019 3:39 am
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Re: Good reasons to believe – or to doubt

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Jagella wrote:

Can you rule out any possible reasons for the existence of the cosmos that don't involve any gods or magic?


I think there is only three options, either someone/something created, or all has developed by chance, or that everything has always been as we can now observe.

Observable nature seems to be in constant change, therefore I think the theory that everything has always been is not correct.

I don’t believe in chance, because real life observations don’t support it. In nature complex systems seem to only erode, if not supported somehow. Things like Empire state buildings are not built by throwing rocks randomly. But I admit, I can’t prove it. You can believe that chance could do all this. I just can’t believe in chance and things just happen randomly.

This is one of the reasons why I believe that someone created. Sophisticated things need something more than random chance. But is it Bible God you may ask? In principle the creator could be someone else. I believe it is the Bible God, because by Bible, He shows knowledge that I don’t think humans would otherwise have had in ancient times.

If you think there is some other possible explanation, I would like to hear that.

Jagella wrote:
Can you elaborate why you think the Bible is accurate about the world and people? It seems to me that "accuracy" doesn't require any gods. I'm accurate all the time, and I'm not a god.


For example it tells about the first single continent before the great flood, which explains well how modern continents, oil and gas fields, marine fossils on high mountains… …were formed (more accurate explanation here http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/geology.html).

And about people, I think Bible tells truth about human nature, how people act and to what things lead and what is good and right. For me it has been great help in how to act in different situations. And I think it has been correct about the future in many cases long before they happen, which is why I can believe it is also true about the future that is coming. And it has done all that in incredibly wise way, in my opinion. But I feel it is best that the enemies of God and the Bible don’t see all the cleverness.

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MPG Recipient Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Fri May 17, 2019 10:58 am
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Re: Good reasons to believe – or to doubt

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1213 wrote:


I think there is only three options, either someone/something created, or all has developed by chance, or that everything has always been as we can now observe.




I can think of another:



    "Something has always existed and is a constant state of change."



Theists who are trying to use nature as evidence of God won't like it simply because it explains existence without the need for a God of any kind. It is possible that there are even more options than the 4 listed here.


Arguments that begin with, "There are only X number of possibilities..." are rarely convincing especially when it is easy to contemplate other viable options.



Tcg

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Sun May 19, 2019 2:53 am
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Re: Good reasons to believe – or to doubt

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Tcg wrote:

1213 wrote:

I think there is only three options, either someone/something created, or all has developed by chance, or that everything has always been as we can now observe.

I can think of another:

    "Something has always existed and is a constant state of change."


Actually "Something has always existed and is a constant state of change." falls in the category something created or things have developed by chance. If everything has not existed always as we can now observe, something has caused the change. And then there is the two options, something or someone caused it, or it happened by a chance. And by what I know, in case of living beings, many people basically believe in Mother Nature god (“Evolution”) as the creator (cause) of different species.

Tcg wrote:
Arguments that begin with, "There are only X number of possibilities..." are rarely convincing especially when it is easy to contemplate other viable options.


Please notice, I said “I think there is only three options… …If you think there is some other possible explanation, I would like to hear that”. That means, I don’t claim other options are not possible, I just think there is no other. If you disagree, please show the other possibilities.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Sun May 19, 2019 3:26 am
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Re: Good reasons to believe – or to doubt

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[Replying to post 5 by 1213]

Quote:
I believe it is the Bible God, because by Bible, He shows knowledge that I don’t think humans would otherwise have had in ancient times.

What knowledge is this? I've read the Bible and Bible God doesn't seem capable of defeating tribes with iron chariots, for example. And here all along I thought he was a storm god, a god of war...surely such an entity would have known to cause a thunderstorm where the iron chariot tribe is and cause their chariots to rust?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Sun May 19, 2019 4:12 am
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Re: Good reasons to believe – or to doubt

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Tcg wrote:




Arguments that begin with, "There are only X number of possibilities..." are rarely convincing especially when it is easy to contemplate other viable options.



That is true. In our primitive state we looked at the sun and bowed before it; it had to be a god for our ignorance made it so. Perhaps we are still in our intellectual infancy and the many possible values of X are many millennia outside our compass. Meantime a God who recorded a message many centuries ago suffices for explanation.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Sun May 19, 2019 4:21 am
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Re: Good reasons to believe – or to doubt

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1213 wrote:



Please notice, I said “I think there is only three options… …If you think there is some other possible explanation, I would like to hear that”. That means, I don’t claim other options are not possible, I just think there is no other. If you disagree, please show the other possibilities.



I have friends with doctorates in astrophysics and they would not speak dogmatically about what is and how it happened. To the Aztec there was no explanation better than the Sun God, Tonatiuh. In some ways religious belief cripples reason.

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