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tryme
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:56 pm  New Covenant Reply with quote

This question comes from a reading of Jeremiah 31 , specifically verse 34 that says

‘They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,”

I was always taught that this was speaking of the new covenant especially the quote I will write my laws on their heart” but this all sounds to me a lot like the millennial kingdom in that No one has to even be taught any religion, and everyone is just born believes and knows. What do you think?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 181: Wed May 15, 2019 10:32 pm
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myth-one.com wrote:

The "Spirit" in the verse below is God:

John 4:24 wrote:
God is a Spirit:

God is all knowing, all seeing, all powerful, etc, etc, etc.

That's a different verse altogether, myth-one. The Holy Spirit comes and goes as the wind, and we see it not, nor do we know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit (the Holy Spirit, Who "came upon" Mary, so that Jesus might be conceived. And we see Jesus, in His resurrected, glorified state, with a physical body (John 20:26-29). We shall be like Him at the Resurrection.

You know, if we had, say 1000 really Biblically literate Christians here, I think about 998 of them would agree with me. The other two might be undecided. Very Happy But you're proof that there are some folks out there who... Very Happy Oh, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit. Okay, 973 out of the 1000. <chuckles>

myth-one.com wrote:

Do you believe God is physical in any way?

Nope. God is spirit. Just like John says (4:24).

myth-one.com wrote:

Since you force the physical body on all humans (believers and nonbelievers) for all eternity, it would seem that you might be able to point out one benefit from such an act.

I "force the physical body on people..." Oh my stars... LOL!

myth-one.com wrote:

Is God somehow missing anything by not having a physical body?

Um, no. Really not sure what would make you ask such a question...

myth-one.com wrote:

Can you identify one benefit which a natural body has over a spiritual body?

It can play golf. I look forward to having a glorified golf game. Very Happy On a more serious note, though (pun intended), I look forward to a lot of physical things in glory. Glorified physical love -- otherwise known as sex -- with my wife being one of them... Very Happy

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 182: Thu May 16, 2019 2:26 am
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PinSeeker wrote:

Checkpoint wrote:

Not at all.
Well, yeah. We, disagree on that, too, I guess.

In John 5 Jesus does not say or mean "all of scripture" or "all of Moses", but only that "he wrote about me".

He was, with little doubt, referring to the prophecy Moses spoke in Deuteronomy 18, the one also mentioned in those Acts passages you cited.

(and perhaps Genesis 3:15 as well).

In Genesis 3:15 we see the first outward proclamation of Jesus, although perhaps veiled somewhat. Moses wrote the first five books of the Old Testament, what we call the Pentateuch. He was speaking of all of it. Good grief, read Leviticus. Jesus is the lamb without blemish. Leviticus has been called, affectionately, "the ABCs of redemption." Read Leviticus 16, about the Day of Atonement, and tell me you don't see Jesus in that. Well, you may not, but you should... Yes, Moses wrote of Jesus. Not everything in the Pentateuch is directly about Jesus, but it really is all about Him. And in Luke 24, the men who talked to Jesus marveled that he spoke of Moses and all the Prophets -- all of Scripture -- in reference to Himself.

So yes, it's all about Him. Every bit of it. But you disagree, I guess, and that's okay with me. Peace, brother.


I think we are in basic agreement and are just coming from a different vantage point.

Not a real problem, just a niggle.

Grace and peace.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 183: Thu May 16, 2019 3:08 am
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[Replying to post 181 by PinSeeker]

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In a more serious note, though (pun intended), I look forward to a lot of physical things in glory. Glorified physical love -- otherwise known as sex -- with my wife being one of them.


Bully for you?

Some in Jesus day had a similar expectation, one that Jesus corrected.

Quote:
Matthew 22:

29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.

30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.


He knew and he knows far better than any of us do, brother.

Settle down now!

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 184: Thu May 16, 2019 8:49 am
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myth-one.com wrote:
Since you force the physical body on all humans (believers and nonbelievers) for all eternity, it would seem that you might be able to point out one benefit from such an act.

PinSeeker wrote:
I "force the physical body on people..." Oh my stars... LOL!

Although it is supported nowhere in the scriptures, you keep insisting that humans will be rejoined with their physical bodies eternally!

myth-one.com wrote:
Is God somehow missing anything by not having a physical body?

Pinseeker wrote:
Um, no. Really not sure what would make you ask such a question...

Because you waste much time trying to attach physical bodies to believers who will be born again as spirits into the Kingdom of God.

myth-one.com wrote:
Can you identify one benefit which a natural body has over a spiritual body?

PinSeeker wrote:
I look forward to a lot of physical things in glory. Glorified physical love -- otherwise known as sex -- with my wife being one of them... Very Happy

You need to get that one out of your mind:

The Saducees attempted to trick Jesus by posing a question whereby one woman had multiple husbands which predeceased her. When she entered the Kingdom of God which earthly husband would become her husband in the Kingdom of Heaven? Jesus answered:

Quote:
For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. (Mark 12:25)

God created marriage to produce families. The sexual act within marriage procreates the human race.

In the Kingdom of God there are no humans and thus no marriage. There we will be like the angels which live forever.

Since angels live forever there is no need to reproduce themselves. Therefore, there is no reason for sex in the Kingdom of God.

Every being in the Kingdom of God will be asexual.

Have a nice day.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 185: Thu May 16, 2019 12:18 pm
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Checkpoint wrote:

Bully for you?

LOL! I don't even know what this means. How did "bullying" enter your mind, and who are you attributing that to? I mean... that's not important, but... I'm sort of at a loss... Very Happy

Checkpoint wrote:

Some in Jesus day had a similar expectation, one that Jesus corrected.

You're right; I was being facetious. We will have our physical bodies, though, just like Jesus. That was my only real point.

Checkpoint wrote:

Settle down now!

I think that needs to be redirected at myth-one. I'm really kind of having fun with this. LOL!

Again, grace and peace to you.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 186: Thu May 16, 2019 12:33 pm
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myth-one.com wrote:

Although it is supported nowhere in the scriptures, you keep insisting that humans will be rejoined with their physical bodies eternally!

Oh, but it is. Jesus was here for a while Himself and then ascended to heaven after His resurrection in His physical body. We will be just like Him... in spirit only until His return and the Judgment and Resurrection, and in body and spirit after.

myth-one.com wrote:
Can you identify one benefit which a natural body has over a spiritual body?
PinSeeker wrote:
I look forward to a lot of physical things in glory. Glorified physical love -- otherwise known as sex -- with my wife being one of them... Very Happy

You need to get that one out of your mind... In the Kingdom of God there are no humans and thus no marriage. There we will be like the angels which live forever. Since angels live forever there is no need to reproduce themselves. Therefore, there is no reason for sex in the Kingdom of God.

Right right right... I was really just being facetious. Very Happy Sure, no marriage in heaven. Again, I was just being facetious... playing with you, that's all. But we will be reunited with our physical bodies on Jesus's return, though, after the resurrection. Just like Jesus was.

myth-one.com wrote:

Have a nice day.

I try to make a point of that every day, myth-one. Same to you. Grace and peace to you.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 187: Thu May 16, 2019 12:36 pm
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I'm going to post this again; this is straight from the Westminster Confession of Faith (with Scripture references):

The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption/decay:

    * Gen. 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, till you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.

    * Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay...

...but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them:

    *Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

    * Eccl. 12:7 ...then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies:

    * Heb. 12:23 … to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect...

    * 2 Cor. 5:1, 6, 8 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.… Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord... we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

    * Phil. 1:23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better...

    * Acts 3:21 … whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began.

    * Eph. 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.

    * Rom. 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

And the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day:

    * Luke 16:23–24 In hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’

    * Acts 1:25 … “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen 25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”

    * Jude 6–7 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

    * 1 Pet. 3:19 … in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison...

Beside these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, Scripture acknowledges none. At the Last Day, those who are still alive shall not die, but be changed:

    * 1 Thess. 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

    * 1 Cor. 15:51–52 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

...and all the dead shall be raised up, with their physical bodies (although with different qualities), which shall be united again to their souls forever:

    * John 5:25–29 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

    * Acts 24:15 And [I] have a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

    * Job 19:26–27 Even after my skin is destroyed, yet from my flesh I shall see God; whom I myself shall behold, and whom my eyes will see and not another. My heart faints within me!

    * Dan. 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

    * 1 Cor. 15:42–44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonor: the bodies of the just, by his Spirit, to honor; and be made to be like Jesus's own glorious body:

    * Acts 24:15 And [I] have a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

    * John 5:25–29 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

    * 1 Cor. 15:43 ...it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power...

    * Phil. 3:21 … who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.


That you disagree is clear, but that really doesn't concern me.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 188: Thu May 16, 2019 6:30 pm
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[Replying to post 187 by PinSeeker]

The only being said to be tormented day and night for ever and ever is the devil:

Quote:
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

It will not be physical torture as the devil is a spiritual being.

===============================================

Quote:
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 16:19-31)

Those who believe the immortal soul myth will read these verses as if the event actually occurred. By that means, as soon as Lazarus and the beggar died, they were confronted with the Kingdom of Heaven and hell. This would confirm that man has an immortal part that must go somewhere immediately upon his physical death.

In actually, these verses comprise a parable or story. We know this because Jesus is speaking in public and He always spoke to the public in parables so that they would not understand:

Quote:
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (Matthew 13:13)

This story did not actually occur. It could not because most of it occurs in the future after the Second Coming of Christ and the resurrection! The rich man and Lazarus have both died and been buried.

Then the parable advances far into the future after the millennium and the second resurrection. The rich man has been born again as a physical body as his name is not written in the book of life. He has been cast into the lake of fire and is about to suffer the second death.

Seeing Lazarus and Abraham not in the fire, he screams for Abraham to send Lazarus to dip his finger in water so as to cool his tongue. Abraham responds that there is a great gulf between those born again spirits and those born again as physical bodies and cast into hell. That great gulf is death! They cannot communicate in any way because those cast into hell quickly suffer the second death.

Soon the gulf separating the rich man from the saved will widen even more, as he dies the second death. The dead know not anything. So this communication occurs before the rich man suffers the second death. Actually, it is while his death is in progress!

Helping him being impossible, the rich man then asks that Lazarus be sent to his father's house to warn his five brethren about what is happening to him, lest they suffer the second death also. He does this not knowing that it is already too late. If he is in hell about to die, his five brethren have died on earth long ago. He has no sense of the time which has passed because he has been dead, or resting. Abraham now reverts back to the time of the rich man's life on earth when he states:

Quote:
They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. (Luke 16:29)

But the rich man reasons that if Lazarus was sent from the dead, surely they would believe and repent. Abraham's response is:

Quote:
If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 16:31)

In actuality, Abraham can make that statement as a fact at that time, as that is exactly what happened. That is, between the death of Lazarus and the rich man and their resurrection, Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead, and many still did not believe and repent.

==========================================

It's very sad that many Christians are convinced that their God creating a system whereby the vast majority of mankind will burn in hellfire for eternity!

Some day you shall know the truth, and the truth will make you free.

Stop & think about it.

Try to imagine any reason for creating such a nightmare.

Be still and know that God created no such monstrosity!

Do you remember who started man's false "immortality?"

Quote:
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

You should accept "man's immortality" as the lie that it is!

That lie is the root cause of the "everlasting torture in hellfire" fiction.

If we live forever, we must live somewhere.

And if we already have immortal souls, the resurrection must be a physical body resurrection.

Thus allowing eternal torture.

What a wonderful "Christian" concept!

Something to be proud of?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 189: Thu May 16, 2019 8:41 pm
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PinSeeker wrote:

Checkpoint wrote:

Bully for you?

LOL! I don't even know what this means. How did "bullying" enter your mind, and who are you attributing that to? I mean... that's not important, but... I'm sort of at a loss... Very Happy


I googled and found this explanatioh of its history:

Quote:
In the 1500s and 1600s, the word bully meant an excellent person. Nowadays, bully usually means someone who hurts those weaker than oneself. The original, positive meaning is still preserved in the idiom bully for you.


Checkpoint wrote:

Some in Jesus day had a similar expectation, one that Jesus corrected.

You're right; I was being facetious. We will have our physical bodies, though, just like Jesus. That was my only real point.[/quote]

Checkpoint wrote:

Settle down now!

Quote:
I think that needs to be redirected at myth-one. I'm really kind of having fun with this. LOL!


And I fell for it!

So the joke's on me.

Love it!

Quote:
Again, grace and peace to you.


You too.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 190: Fri May 17, 2019 11:03 am
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myth-one.com wrote:

The only being said to be tormented day and night for ever and ever is the devil... It will not be physical torture as the devil is a spiritual being.

Well, "torment" is the word used there, not "torture." "Torment" and "torture" are two very different things, myth-one. In the case of hell, the torment endured is not physical torture actively administered by anyone...

(like water-boarding, or ripping out of eyeballs or something) Shocked

.... much less is anything actually administered by God. Rather, it is total abandonment by God resulting from the decision(s) of the tormented. God finally gives them over to themselves (Romans 1)... He finally gives them the desire of their heart... for eternity.

myth-one.com wrote:

This story did not actually occur.

No person with even half a brain thinks Jesus was speaking of anything that actually occurred there; it's a parable, which, by definition, is fictional. But it is, however, an allegory, and as such, gives us real, practical insight into a possible future reality if we ourselves were to continue down a certain path. This is precisely why Jesus told the (fictional) story (parable) of the rich man and Lazarus.

And, you may know this, but the name Lazarus actually means "he who God helps," which means by inference that God is not helping the rich man in any way, shape, or form in this parable, and THAT, myth-one, is his torment... his eternal torment.

myth-one.com wrote:

It could not because most of it occurs in the future after the Second Coming of Christ and the resurrection! The rich man and Lazarus have both died and been buried.

Nahhhhh, now that's just your opinion, which you are more than welcome to, but you're imposing something onto the Scripture that is just not there. If anything, one would have to say it was set in the past, because Jesus says, at the outset, "There was a rich man..." But Jesus doesn't give any kind of time setting for this parable, which means there is no time setting, which means this parable could depict and event at any point, be it the past, present, or future.

myth-one.com wrote:

Then the parable advances far into the future after the millennium and the second resurrection. The rich man has been born again as a physical body as his name is not written in the book of life. He has been cast into the lake of fire and is about to suffer the second death... yada yada yada...

Just opinion. And, in my humble opinion (and that of most notable Christian theologians past and present), incorrect. Sometimes we let our beliefs/opinions shape Scripture instead of the other way around; Scripture should shape our beliefs/opinions.

myth-one.com wrote:

It's very sad that many Christians...

...can't let disagreements about non-salvific matters go, because such is one cause of perpetuated conflict (and thus sin) between believers and is terribly detrimental to the brotherly unity of the saints in Christ Jesus. Yes, that's truly sad. But, thanks be to God, one great day there will be no more of that. As Christians, we all long for that day.

Grace and peace... and love... to you in the matchless Name of our savior and Lord Jesus Christ, myth-one.


Last edited by PinSeeker on Fri May 17, 2019 11:21 am; edited 2 times in total

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