Is Jesus or Rumour effective today?

[marco]

Many claim that Christ still has a direct influence on them today. They are perhaps influenced by John 6:37, “He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.� But he led those that followed him into torture and death; he could not save himself, and found no words to defend himself against the charges brought. He advocated tolerance and peace then lost his temper in the temple. He did not write anything that can be analysed, but leaving it to those that didn't know him he entrusted himself to rumour.


Is it Christ who has influence today, or the multi-national religions that built churches on his bones?

And is the personal Christ who whispers in the night nothing more than the sober voice of conscience and hope? Does it matter?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

Jesus totally changed my life but I've never heard Him speak outside of the Bible. I dont think there is a person on this forum that wouldnt experience profound change if they only followed.

Sometimes I just want to apologise for not knowong enough apologetics but you really can't understand water without getting wet.

Go watch Johnathan Pageau I think he will picque your mind.

[marco]

Jesus totally changed my life but I've never heard Him speak outside of the Bible. I don't think there is a person on this forum that wouldn't experience profound change if they only followed.

Sometimes I just want to apologise for not knowing enough apologetics but you really can't understand water without getting wet.

Go watch Johnathan Pageau I think he will picque your mind.

Hi Wootah - thanks for the comment. I'm not sure we need to take a bath to understand water nor do we need to talk to Hamlet to understand Hamlet. We are sometimes seduced by the delicious chocolate of our dreams and hopes.

I looked at Jonathan and was sad to learn of his flooding misfortune. For what it is worth it meant he gained a little from Marco. He sounds a nice person.

[ttruscott]

he could not save himself,

Quaint strawman pov: He came to die...

[Elijah John]

he could not save himself,

Quaint strawman pov: He came to die...

Then why didn't Jesus announce that fact at the beginning of his ministry? Why didn't he say anything to the effect of "blessed are those who believe in my blood, for their sins will be paid for"?

Or "Good news, I have come to die in order to pay for your sins!" ?

No, instead Jesus preached the Kingdom, and God as merciful Father. And Jesus taught that God favored the outcast and downtrodden. And Jesus, like all prophets, preached repentance.

The blood/ransom theology seems to have been an afterthought, or a revision. An attempt to make sense of Jesus unexpected martyrdom so he would not be just another failed Messiah.

[ttruscott]

he could not save himself,

Quaint strawman pov: He came to die...

Then why didn't Jesus announce that fact at the beginning of his ministry? Why didn't he say anything to the effect of "blessed are those who believe in my blood, for their sins will be paid for"?

Or "Good news, I have come to die in order to pay for your sins!" ?

For those with ears:
Jn 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
...
17 The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.�

19 Again there was division among the Jews because of Jesus’ message.

For those without ears: 20 Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and insane. Why would you listen to Him?�

He made His claims - HE left it to others to explain them.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

Many claim that Christ still has a direct influence on them today.

One thing we have established, and demonstrated is the fact that this Christ, has certainly had an "influence" on you, to the point he has consumed the better part of your life.

They are perhaps influenced by John 6:37, “He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.�

Well, I think that, with all the rest the Apostles have accomplished, has consumed you for the most part.

But he led those that followed him into torture and death; he could not save himself, and found no words to defend himself against the charges brought.

And yet, you continue to be consumed by such a one?

He advocated tolerance and peace then lost his temper in the temple.

Oh yeah? I forgot about that. He must not have been the Christ, after all???

He did not write anything that can be analysed, but leaving it to those that didn't know him he entrusted himself to rumour.

Can you demonstrate that those who wrote about him, "didn't know him?" Well, no you cannot!

Next, those who did write about him, were so successful, that this man who was crucified, has become the most well known name in the history of the world, some 2000 years later, to the point these writers have consumed your life.

Is it Christ who has influence today, or the multi-national religions that built churches on his bones?

I don't know, but since you seem to have all the answers, why don't you tell us exactly what it is about this story that consumes so much of your thinking?

And is the personal Christ who whispers in the night nothing more than the sober voice of conscience and hope? Does it matter?

When you go to sleep tonight, and you hear such a "whisper" just turn over and try to go on to sleep. If these "whispers" continue, you might want to check around and determine the source. If cannot find a source, you may want to seek out help about the matter. Seriously!

[marco]

he could not save himself,

Quaint strawman pov: He came to die...

We differ in our ideas of what a strawman argument is. Because he did not or could not save himself, it is possible to conclude he didn't want to, but it is equally possible to observe that he failed to defend his position and was executed. At the least one would have expected him -if he had right on his side -to demonstrate this unambiguously. He didn't. Instead he observed he had a few thousand militia in the angel corps but he wasn't going to deploy them.

"He came to die" is a theory. He came to pass on some message and died in the attempt.

[marco]

[Replying to post 7 by Realworldjack]


I am interested in many things and since this is a forum that deals largely with Christ, I feel I have to express a view on that subject rather than discuss young Rimbaud's poetic achievements or Pushkin's lyricism, Wellington's commendation of the fields of Eton or Henry's final words about "monks."

I can appreciate that you want to defend the Lord, given his refusal to write a single word and so save us the trouble of guessing his intentions.

But the question is simple: is this phenomenon we are discussing a vast rumour spread by Churchmen with a vested interest in preserving their positions? Or was the humble Jesus a god in disguise? That's a more interesting question than Marco's psychology surely.

[Tcg]

I dont think there is a person on this forum that wouldnt experience profound change if they only followed.

I don't think there is a person on this forum that wouldn't experience profound change if they only stopped following. Change of course shows nothing other than that change changes things. It's not a terribly profound claim.



Tcg