Rational and civil debate between members of all religions and world views


Reply to topic
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:21 pm
Reply
Phil. 2:6-8

Like this post
“Who, being [huparchon] in the form [morphe] of God [theou], thought it not robbery [harpagmos] to be equal [ison] with God. But ... took upon him the form [morphe] of a servant, and was made in the likeness [homoiomati] of men: And being found in fashion [schemati] as a man....” - Phil. 2:6-8, KJV.

Words from the NT Greek text of Phil. 2:6-8 which need examining:

Huparchon; Morphe; Harpagmos; ison; schemati.

Anyone care to tell us about huparchon?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:00 pm
Reply
Re: Phil. 2:6-8

Like this post
[Replying to post 1 by tigger2]

A. Huparchon [ὑπάρχων in Greek letters] is never used for God because it actually, literally means:
“to make a beginning (hupo, ‘under’; arche, ‘a beginning’)” - W. E. Vine’s An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 390.

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance also defines huparcho(n) as “to begin under (quietly), i.e. COME INTO EXISTENCE” - #5225.

And the authoritative (and trinitarian) An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon by Liddell and Scott tells us:

“[huparcho] ... to begin, make a beginning ... 2. to make a beginning of ... 3. to begin doing ... 4. to begin [doing] kindness to one ... Pass. to be begun” - p. 831, Oxford University Press, 1994 printing.

So, even though it may be rendered into English as “existed” or “is,” it nevertheless seems to me that it must also be understood as something that has also come into existence at some point.

In that sense, then, huparchon may be very much like another NT word, ginomai, γινόμαι [#1096, Thayer’s], which also literally means “become” or “come into existence” but is sometimes translated into English as “is,” “are,” etc. E.g., 1 Peter 3:6 “whose daughters ye are [ginomai],” KJV, NKJV, NAB, RSV, NIV, is more properly understood as “you have become [ginomai] her children,” NASB, NRSV, NEB, NWT - Cf. John 6:17, “It was [ginomai] dark.”

As respected trinitarian NT Greek expert Dr. Alfred Marshall tells us:
“[Ginomai] denotes the coming into existence of what did not exist before.... This verb [just like huparchon - T2] is therefore not used of God....”

Marshall further explains that although ginomai is often translated into English as “is,” “are,” “were,” etc. it must nevertheless be remembered that it still retains the additional meaning of having come into existence! - p. 106, New Testament Greek Primer, Zondervan Publishing House, 1978 printing.

For another good example of the similarity of huparchon with ginomai see Luke 16:23 and 22:44.
Lk. 16:23 - “he lifted up his eyes, being [huparchon] in torment,” NASB.
Lk. 22:44 - “and being [ginomai] in agony he was praying,” NASB.

In very similar statements Luke has used the very similar (in meaning) huparchon and ginomai and the respected NASB has rendered them both “being.” But in both cases their fundamental meanings of “coming into existence” (or “coming to be”) must be remembered. In other words, the person had not always been in torment or agony, but at some point had “come to be” in such a condition!

If you examine the following examples of the Biblical usage of huparcho(n), you will find they are clearly speaking of conditions which once did not exist but which have come into existence or “have begun to be”: Luke 16:23; Acts 2:30; Acts 7:55; Acts 8:16; Ro. 4:19; 1 Cor. 11:18; 2 Cor. 8:17; James 2:15.

So, it is not improbable that huparchon in Phil. 2:6 should be understood as “Who, although He had come into existence [huparchon] in the form [morphe] of God [theou],"

For more of my study of huparchon, see: [url] http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/10/phil-26_8991.html
[/url]

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:54 am
Reply
Re: Phil. 2:6-8

Like this post
[Replying to post 2 by tigger2]

How about the meaning of morphe?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:33 pm
Reply
Re: Phil. 2:6-8

Like this post (1): JehovahsWitness
[Replying to post 2 by tigger2]

B.
Morphe
Although it has been rejected by even many trinitarian Bible scholars, some others attempt to force an interpretation of morphe (μορφῇ) that includes the idea of “essence” or “nature.” They do this only at Phil. 2:6 (Jesus “was in the form [morphe] of God”) because the true meaning of morphe will not allow for the interpretation that Jesus is God. But with their forced interpretation of morphe at Phil. 2:6 they can say that Jesus had the “absolute essence” and “full nature” of God!

As even a number of trinitarian Bible scholars admit:
“Morphe is instanced from Homer onwards and means form in the sense of outward appearance.” - The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 1986, Zondervan, p. 705, vol. 1.

Thayer agrees that morphe is
“the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance” - Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 418, Baker Book House. [Also see Young’s Analytical Concordance]

Liddell and Scott’s An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon, p. 519, Oxford University Press, 1994 printing, tells us that morphe can mean “form, fashion, appearance” but does not include a meaning for “nature” or “essence.” It also shows that if one truly intends the meaning of “being, essence, nature of a thing” it is defined by the Greek word ousia (p. 579) or phusis (p. 876) not morphe.

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (abridged in one volume), Eerdmans, 1985, says “In general morphe in all its nuances represents what may be seen by the senses and not what is mentally apprehended.” - p. 608. It also tells us that when “nature” is intended by Paul, he uses physis (phusis). E.g., Ro. 11:21, 24; Gal. 2:15;4:8. - p. 1286.

The highly-esteemed BAGD (and BDAG) also defines morphe as “form, outward appearance, shape.” - p. 530.

It’s easy to see why even many trinitarian scholars disagree with the forced “nature” interpretation of morphe when you look at all the scriptural uses of morphe (according to Young’s Analytical Concordance, Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1978 printing and A Concordance of the Septuagint, Zondervan Publishing House, 1979 printing): Mark 16:12; Phil. 2:6, 7 in the New Testament and in the Old Testament Greek Septuagint of Job 4:16 “there was no form [morphe] before my eyes;” Is. 44:13 “makes it as the form [morphe] of a man;” Dan. 4:33 “my natural form [morphe] returned to me;” 5:6, 9, 10 “the king’s countenance [morphe] changed;” 7:28 “[Daniel’s] countenance [morphe] was changed.” - The Septuagint Version, Greek and English, Zondervan, 1976 printing.

Morphe is found at Mark 16:12. Notice especially how the New American Bible (1970), the Living Bible, The New English Bible, the Douay version, the New Life Version, and the Easy-to-Read Version translate morphe at Mark 16:12:

“he was revealed to them completely changed in appearance [morphe]” - NAB.
“they didn’t recognize him at first because he had changed his appearance [morphe].” - LB.
“he appeared in a different guise [morphe]” - NEB.
“he appeared in another shape [morphe]” - Douay.
“he did not look like he had looked [morphe] before to these two people” - NLV.
“Jesus did not look the same” - ETRV.
Mark 16:12 - “'He appeared in another form.' Luke explains this by saying that their eyes were held. If their eyes were influenced, of course, optically speaking, Jesus would appear in another form.” - People’s New Testament Notes.

Later, Jesus showed himself to two of his followers while they were walking in the country, but he did not look the same as before. - NCV.


These trinitarian translations show the meaning of morphe to be that of “external appearance” not “essence” or “nature”!

The Living Bible even renders morphe at Phil. 2:7 as “disguise”! And the 1969 French lectionary rendered morphe at Phil. 2:6 as image!

Also notice how the first Christian writers after the Apostolic fathers understood the meaning of morphe at Phil 2:6 itself:

“... who being in the shape of God, thought it not an object of desire to be treated like God” - Christian letter from 177 A.D. sometimes ascribed to Irenaeus, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (ANF), p. 784, vol. 8.

“... who being in the image of God, ‘thought it not ...’” - Tertullian, about 200 A.D., ANF, p. 549, vol. 3.

“...who being appointed in the figure of God ...” - Cyprian, about 250 A.D., ANF, p. 545, vol. 5.

We can see, then, that, with the originally-intended meaning of morphe, Paul is saying that before Jesus came to earth he had a form or an external appearance resembling that of God (as do the other heavenly spirit persons such as the angels also).

So one in the morphe of a slave is one who has the appearance of a slave (but is not in actuality - thus, “taking the disguise [morphe] of a slave” - Phil. 2:7, Living Bible.).

Isaiah 44:13, for example, says in the Septuagint: “The artificer having chosen a piece of wood, marks it out with a rule, and fits it with glue, and makes it as the form [morphe] of a man” - Zondervan, 1976 printing. Now a “Wooditarian” might well claim that the wood in this scripture ‘clearly has the full and complete essence, nature, etc. of a man,’ but no objective, reasonable person would accept his wishful interpretation! Instead an honest interpretation can only be that the artificer made the piece of wood to appear like a man.

The fact that it is in the form (morphe) of a man shows conclusively (as we should know anyway) that it is not a man! If the writer of this scripture had somehow intended to say that the artificer had indeed made the piece of wood into a real man, he would not have used morphe. He would have written that the artificer “makes it into a man.” And, of course, it is equally true that Paul would not have said Jesus was in the form (morphe) of God if he had meant that Jesus was God! The use of morphe there shows that Jesus was not God!

Yes, the fact that some insist that morphe can mean the very essence or nature of a thing does not make it so. We know that ‘essence,’ ‘nature,’ ‘essential nature,’ etc. were not intended here by Paul simply because of the way this word is always used in scripture. We know it also by the fact that there were words available to Paul which really did mean ‘essence’ or ‘nature.’ If Paul, or any other Bible writer, had ever wished to use a word indicating the nature, substance, or essence of something, he could have used phusis or, possibly, even ousia.

Phusis, “φύσις ... nature, i.e, .... d. the sum of innate properties and powers by which one person differs from others” - Thayer, #5449.

Phusis, “φύσις, ... the nature, natural qualities, powers, constitution, condition, of a person or thing” - Liddell and Scott, p. 876.

Phusis (φύσις), ... signifies (a) the nature (i.e., the natural powers or constitution) of a person or thing” - W. E. Vine, p. 775.

Ousia, “οὐσία ... that which is one’s own, one’s substance, .... III. the being, essence, nature of a thing” - p. 579, Liddell and Scott’s An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford Press.


[url] http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/10/phil-26_8991.html [/url]

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:20 pm
Reply
Re: Phil. 2:6-8

Like this post
[Replying to post 4 by tigger2]

Will anyone tell us what harpagmos//harpagmon honestly means in English?

Hint: KJV is close, but uses it incorrectly in context.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:55 pm
Reply
Re: Phil. 2:6-8

Like this post
[Replying to post 5 by tigger2]

C.
Very few trinitarian-translated Bibles render harpagmos correctly at Phil. 2:6

1. “He did not think to snatch at [harpagmos, ἁρπαγμὸς] equality with God” - NEB.


2. “He did not think that by force [harpagmos] he should try to become equal with God” - TEV (and GNB).

3. - He existed in the form of God, yet he gave no thought to seizing equality with God as his supreme prize. - TPT.

Of course, again, we don't expect most trinitarian-translated Bibles to render traditional 'proofs' in a non-trinitarian way.

The New American Standard Concordance of the Bible (also by trinitarians) tells us: “harpagmos; from [harpazo]; the act of seizing or the thing seized.” And, “harpazo ... to seize, catch up, snatch away.” Notice that all have to do with taking something away by force. - # 725 & #726, Holman Bible Publ., 1981.

In fact, the trinitarian The Expositor’s Greek Testament, 1967, pp. 436, 437, vol. III, tells us:

“We cannot find any passage where [harpazo] or any of its derivatives [which include harpagmos] has the sense of ‘holding in possession,’ ‘retaining’ [as preferred in many trinitarian translations of Phil. 2:6]. It seems invariably to mean ‘seize’, ‘snatch violently’. Thus it is not permissible to glide from the true sense [‘snatch violently’] into one which is totally different, ‘hold fast.’ ”

And the trinitarian The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology tells us that the majority of Bible scholars (mostly trinitarian, of course)

“have taken harpagmos to mean a thing plundered or seized..., and so spoil, booty or a prize of war.” - p. 604, vol. 3, Zondervan, 1986.

Trinitarian scholar R. P. Martin, for example, feels the context (especially the obvious contrast of verses 6 and 7) clearly proves that harpagmos in verse 6 means Christ refused to seize equality with God. Emphasizing the fact that this is a contrast with verse 6, verse 7 begins with “but [alla].” In accord with this, he tells us,

“V[erse] 6b states what Christ might have done [or could have attempted to do], i.e. seized equality with God; v. 7 states what he chose to do, i.e. give himself.” - The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, vol. 3, p. 604.

The key to both these words (harpagmos and its source word, harpazo) is: taking something away from someone by force and against his will. And if we should find a euphemism such as “prize” used in a trinitarian Bible for harpagmos, it has to be understood only in the same sense as a pirate ship forcibly seizing another ship as its “prize”!

We can easily see this “taken by force” meaning in all the uses of harpazo (the source word for harpagmos) in the New Testament. But since harpagmos itself is used only at Phil. 2:6 in the NT, Bible scholars must go to the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament (which is frequently quoted in the NT), the Septuagint.

In the Septuagint harpagmos (in its forms of harpagma and harpagmata) is used 16 times according to trinitarian Zondervan’s A Concordance of the Septuagint, p. 32, 1979 printing. And in every case its meaning is the taking of something away from someone by force. Here they are in the Bagster Septuagint as published by Zondervan: Lev. 6:4 “plunder;” Job 29:17 “spoil” (a “prize” taken by force); Ps. 61:10 (Ps. 62:10 in most modern Bibles) “robberies;” Is. 42:22 “prey;” Is. 61:8 “robberies;” Ezek. 18:7 “plunder;” Ezek. 18:12 “robbery;” Ezek. 18:16 “robbery;” Ezek. 18:18 “plunder;” Ezek. 19:3 “prey;” Ezek. 19:6 “take prey;” Ezek. 22:25 “seizing prey;” Ezek. 22:27 “get dishonest gain” (through the use of “harpazo” or “force”); Ezek. 22:29 “robbery;” Ezek. 33:15 “has robbed;” and Malachi 1:13 “torn victims” (compare ASV).

So, in spite of some trinitarians’ reasonings and subjective translations, it is clear from the way it was always used in scripture that harpagmos means either taking something away by force (a verb), or something which has been taken by force (a noun).

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:18 pm
Reply

Like this post
Can anyone give us the actual meaning of isos/isa? "Equal" is the one-word definition, but it needs to be more narrowly defined.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:55 pm
Reply

Like this post
[Replying to post 7 by tigger2]

Ison: “Equal” (in Phil. 2:6)

(Please consider: Being “equal to someone or something” [like being “the image of someone”] is really a statement that you are not really that person or thing at all!

When we intend to identify someone or something, we come right out and say it. We do not say, “David is equal to the king of Israel;” “Jesus is equal to the Christ;” “Jehovah is equal to God;” etc.! No, we clearly say, “David is King over Israel” - 2 Sam. 5:17; “Jesus is the Christ” - 1 Jn 5:1; “Jehovah is God” - 1 Ki 18:39, Living Bible, ASV, Young’s, and The Interlinear Bible; Ps 100:3, ASV, Young’s, and The Interlinear Bible. - - -
Remember, “LORD” in most Bibles is a mistranslation of “Jehovah.”)

“The term ‘equal’ here,” Walter Martin writes, “is another form of ison , namely isa, which again denotes absolute sameness of nature, thus confirming Christ’s true Deity.” - p. 68, KOTC.

So Martin tries to tell us that Phil. 2:6 is asserting that Jesus “thought it not something to be retained [harpagmos] to be of the absolute same nature with God.”

But even the highly acclaimed trinitarian authority The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology admits that ison (and its related forms)
“indicates more strongly an external, objectively measurable and established likeness and correspondence” - p. 497, vol. 2.

A careful study of the NT uses of this word not only shows that it means an external likeness but that it may even be limited to a likeness of only one aspect of the original.

Isos (isa, neut.) “ἴσος ... prob. from 1492 [eido] (through the idea of seeming); similar (in amount or kind)” - Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.

So when one thing is described as isa [ison] with another thing, they are still two separate different things. One is merely like or similar to another in a certain aspect.

The trinitarian The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, vol. 2, p. 968, discussing isos, reveals:

“In Mt 20:12, ‘made them equal’ means ‘put them upon the same footing,’ i.e. regarded their brief service as though it were the very same as our long hours of toil. In Lk 20:36 the context restricts the equality to a particular relation.” - Eerdmans Publ., 1984 reprint.

In other words, ison at Matt. 20:12 makes the workers measurably “equal” to one another in only one external aspect: the amount of money they were to receive. They were really very unequal otherwise. Also in Luke 20:36, as the trinitarian reference quoted above tells us, those resurrected humans and God’s angels are not necessarily considered equal in essence in this scripture but in only one particular relation: they will not die again. (See Living Bible.)

And we see the same thing in the OT Septuagint:

“so thy quarrel and enmity shall not depart, but shall be to thee like [isos] death.” - Prov. 25:10, Septuagint Version, Zondervan Publ., 1970, p. 813.
“Quarrel” and “enmity” certainly are not absolutely equal to death (in spite of the fact that some could render this “shall be equal [isos] to death”)! The similarity of the single quality of permanence is the only thing being equated here. The “quarreling” and “enmity” are a never-ending condition, like death itself.

A good example is the use of isa (“equal” at Isaiah 51:23) in the Septuagint: Here God is speaking about those oppressors who commanded Israelites to lie down flat on the ground so they could be walked upon, and the Israelites “made their bodies equal [isa] with the ground” so they could be walked upon. Obviously the Israelites did not make their bodies absolutely equal with the ground thereby making themselves literal ground [or having the ‘absolute sameness of nature’ as the ground as Walter Martin would have to say] also, but merely made them equal in one or more attributes (neuter) of the ground: flatness, lowness, destined to be walked upon, etc.

Furthermore, the fact that isa is neuter in this verse in Philippians means that Paul is not saying that Jesus is perfectly equal to God himself. You see, the word ‘God’ here is the masculine form of the word, and for the word ‘equal’ (whatever its intended meaning) to be applied wholly to the word ‘God’ itself it must be of the same gender (masculine in this case - isos). - see the similar use of the neuter ‘one’ used for the masculine ‘God’ in the ONE study.

Therefore, even if isa could mean absolute equality, only some thing (or things) about God is being considered - not God as a whole. Therefore, Jesus is refusing to seize some thing or things (authority, power, immortality, ...?) that are similar to God’s.

That is why 4th century trinitarians were forced to use a non-Biblical word instead of isos in an attempt to provide just such a meaning for their trinitarian creeds (see MINOR13).

So if we translated this passage with the actual, full meaning of the word ison, the literal NT Greek: (“not taking by force [harpagmos] considered [hegeomai] the to be ‘equal’ [isa] with god [theo]”) - would be rendered: “did not even consider forcefully trying to become like God (even in any single aspect).”

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:20 pm
Reply

Like this post (1): JehovahsWitness
[Replying to post 8 by tigger2]

Remember also that Phil. 2:6-7 is described in vss. 3, 5 as "with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves .... Have this attitude [humility] in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus," - NASB. The usual translation of Phil. 2:6 is far from showing humility.

What we really have at Phil. 2:6-7, then, may be more accurately rendered:

“who, even though he had come into existence [huparchon] as a glorious spirit person in a likeness [morphe, ‘external form or guise’] of God (or a god), never gave consideration that by force he should try [harpagmos] to become equal to God (in even a single aspect or quality), but, instead, emptied himself of his glorious form and took on the likeness [external form or guise] of a slave, being born in the likeness of men.”

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Tue May 28, 2019 2:08 pm
Reply

Like this post
Tigger2 wrote:

Quote:
Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance also defines huparcho(n) as “to begin under (quietly), i.e. COME INTO EXISTENCE” - #5225.


The word “huparchon” (ὑπάρχων) has more than one meaning and more than one use which you conveniently have failed to mention. Strong’s defines it as meaning “to begin, to be ready or at hand, to be” and its usage as “I begin, am, exist, am in possession”. Strong’s also notes that, when used as “to be”, with a predicate nominative as in Phil. 2:6 (ἐν μορφή Θεοῦ ὑπάρχειν, being in the form of God), it means exactly what it is translated as (being, existing) not only in legitimate Bibles such as the NIV or NRSV, but in the JW’s bogus New World Translation as well which reads “Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form . . . . “

(https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/study-bible/books/philippians/2/)

See Strong’s for the full explanation here:

https://biblehub.com/greek/5225.htm

And note what Strong’s says about the prefix “hypo” here:

5225 hypárxō (from 5223 /hýparksis, "under" and 757/arxō, "begin, go first") – properly, already have (be in possession of); what exists, especially what pre-exists, i.e. is already under one's discretion (note the prefix hypo).

The word is not just speaking about the existence of Jesus on earth, but about his pre-existence as well. In fact, that’s why the verb is presented in the form of a present participle and not as a finite verb as noted by Bible scholar Gerald Hawthorne in an essay entitled “In the Form of God and Equal with God” from Where Christology Began edited by R. Martin and Brian J. Dodd (Louisville, Kentucky: John Knox Press, 1998, p. 97). It’s saying that Jesus has always existed in the form of God.

Tigger2 wrote:

Quote:
In that sense, then, huparchon may be very much like another NT word, ginomai, γινόμαι [#1096, Thayer’s], which also literally means “become” or “come into existence” but is sometimes translated into English as “is,” “are,” etc


The word “ginomai” has only one meaning as you stated above. But a discussion of it actually works against your argument because, if the author of the hymn of Christ wanted to say that Jesus began or came into existence, he could have used “ginomia”. Instead, he chose to use “huparchon” because it carries the connotation of existing not just in the present but in the past as well. I encourage readers to follow the link for Strong’s that I posted above to see the many Biblical uses of the word “huparchon” which have nothing to do with a beginning. Take Acts 17:27 for example which states that God is (hyparconta, ὑπάρχοντα) not far from us. It isn’t talking about a beginning there.

Tigger wrote:

Quote:
Liddell and Scott’s An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon, p. 519, Oxford University Press, 1994 printing, tells us that morphe can mean “form, fashion, appearance” but does not include a meaning for “nature” or “essence.” It also shows that if one truly intends the meaning of “being, essence, nature of a thing” it is defined by the Greek word ousia (p. 579) or phusis (p. 876) not morphe.


I see that you have not gone to Strong’s for information. Could that be because Strong’s disagrees with you about the word? We read this:

3444 morphḗ – properly, form (outward expression) that embodies essential (inner) substance so that the form is in complete harmony with the inner essence

https://biblehub.com/greek/3444.htm

Once again, you have chosen to share ONLY ONE meaning of the word because it suits your purposes when there is another meaning offered, one that can be found at the link above. There we read this about the use of the word compared to another word that could have been used:

μορφή form differs from σχῆμα (figure, shape, fashion), as that which is intrinsic and essential, from that which is outward and accidental.

If the writer were talking about external similarity, why didn’t he use σχῆμα? I suggest it’s because he wanted to talk about identity and essence, noting that Jesus was intrinsically and essentially God. Therefore, he chose to use “morphe”.

The word “ousia” is used to talk about what one owns, that is, property or wealth, not one’s essence. It is only used twice in the New Testament in Luke 15:12, 13 which read:

The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property (ousia) between them. “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth (ousia) in wild living.

https://www.billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/ousia

As for the word “physis”, it does indeed mean nature, but it does NOT mean essence. The word refers to that which is instinctive or natural as compared to unnatural or to that which pertains to what is natural physically or to one’s race or ethnicity. That’s why the word was not used here in Phil. 2:6. It was not appropriate. See here for a fuller explanation:

https://biblehub.com/greek/5449.htm

The word ‘nature’ or “form” as used in the hymn of Christ refers to “that body of qualities which constitute him God and without which he would not be God” according to the aforementioned Gerald Hawthorne. Therefore, it does not simply describe external appearance, but “refers to that which truly and fully expresses the being which underlies it,” says Bob Deffinbaugh. See here for his essay:

https://bible.org/seriespage/spirit-christ-philippians-21-13

tigger2 wrote:

Quote:
“We cannot find any passage where [harpazo] or any of its derivatives [which include harpagmos] has the sense of ‘holding in possession,’ ‘retaining’ [as preferred in many trinitarian translations of Phil. 2:6]. It seems invariably to mean ‘seize’, ‘snatch violently’. Thus it is not permissible to glide from the true sense [‘snatch violently’] into one which is totally different, ‘hold fast.’ ”


That isn’t true according to Greek Scholar Bill Mounce whose textbooks are standard for Greek seminary students. He glosses it as “something to hold on to” and defines it as “eager seizure”, in the New Testament as “a thing retained with an eager grasp or early claimed and conspicuously exercised”. See here:

https://www.billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/harpagmos

Here’s another way of looking at it: While “form” and “being” refer to Christ’s ontological equality, this verse refers to his functional equality. Dennis Burk explores this in detail at the Bible.org link below. Be forewarned, however, that it would be useful to know Greek to understand the complexities of the topic.

https://bible.org/article/meaning-harpagmos-philippians-26-overlooked-datum-func...

It’s always important to read a verse in context. When we do, we see that the statement about functional equality goes with the subsequent verse stating that, while Christ had the same abilities as God (because he is God), he chose not to use them, but set them aside (emptied himself) to function as a man while on earth.

Tigger2 wrote:

Quote:
Please consider: Being “equal to someone or something” [like being “the image of someone”] is really a statement that you are not really that person or thing at all!

And this:

Isos (isa, neut.) “ἴσος ... prob. from 1492 [eido] (through the idea of seeming); similar(in amount or kind)” - Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.



Once again you have selected one statement from Strong’s that seems to support your case, but you have failed to note all the other information on the page that contradicts what you believe. You left this out:

2470 ísos – equality; having the same (similar) level or value; equivalent, equal in substance or quality (J. Thayer). See here:

https://biblehub.com/greek/2470.htm

It says equal in substance or quality. How do we know the meaning of the word? By context and the context is that Jesus is God as shown by the vocabulary used so far in this passage.

I have no more time to spend on this. However, I hope I have pointed out one disturbing aspect of the information you provided – it contains only those things that support your case and ignores those that don’t. That is misleading and deceptive. If you are simply copying and pasting someone else’s work, then you need to do some study to make sure the arguments aren’t flawed – which they are. If you yourself wrote the information, then you need to be more honest in your presentation. I think you bank upon two facts: one, that most people here don’t know Greek and two, that most people won’t take the trouble to look up the sources for themselves to see if what you say is true.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Display posts from previous:   


Jump to:  
Facebook
Tweet

 




On The Web | Ecodia | Hymn Lyrics Apps
Facebook | Twitter

Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.   Produced by Ecodia.

Igloo   |  Lo-Fi Version