What do we make of miracles?

[marco]

I don't for a second believe the tale of Lazarus. To make sure we don't conclude he was just asleep we are told "he stinketh." Is it possible that Jesus "woke" some young man into moral consciousness, and the tale was later recorded as an actual miracle?

Or was Jesus complicit in a great deception where "blind" and "deaf" people were planted in his path to be "cured." His mixture of spittle and mud seems suspiciously artificial.
John 9:6 6 : After saying this, he spat on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes.



And if Christ was the Great Deceiver, what was his purpose? In other words, if we discard miracles as fakery, what is the explanation of Jesus?

[Mithrae]

It seems to me that his parents uncovered their son's fraud and Miguel needed an explanation. It is suspicious, surely, that restoration took place when Miguel was most vulnerable to being exposed.

And the surgeons who testified under oath that they had amputated the leg were all simply lying, sure. That's certainly possible. No doubt the shrine where they worked saw a big influx of pilgrims as word got around; I'm not aware of any evidence to suggest that the medical workers would personally reap any benefits from that, but we might as well assume that there's a motive in there somewhere, especially if we add some of their higher-ups to the conspiracy. It presumably would have been easy enough for Pellicer to fool all the people who testified to having known him as a one-legged beggar for those years simply by binding his leg up. Apparently he needed a permit for begging around the shrine, understandably enough, and it surely would not be so easy to fool those tasked with confirming that he was crippled and unable to work; but perhaps those relevant authorities were also in on the scheme from the beginning. Maybe Pellicer (thinking the life of a homeless beggar discomforted by a bound-up leg would be nicer than that of a farmer with a roof over his head) tried unlicensed begging and, when caught, instead of punishment was persuaded to go along with the conspiracy to fake his healing?

According to the Wikipedia article condition of the 'regrown' leg was consistent with a leg replaced using modern techniques - "cold and hard with contracted toes and blue in colour" and "initially a few centimetres shorter due to the loss of bone tissue" - but probably not with one which was merely bound up during the days Pellicer ventured out in public... perhaps not even consistent with atrophy from constant binding, I wouldn't know. But maybe that information also comes from fraudulent testimony. It certainly is possible that no miracle occurred.

But I'm sure you will agree that there is no basis for supposing certainty, or anything even remotely approaching certainty, that non-miraculous conspiracy speculations are what actually happened.

[marco]

And the surgeons who testified under oath that they had amputated the leg were all simply lying, sure.

I haven't seen reference to sworn testimony but of course mistakes are made, people do err. even surgeons. Today we have doctors practising with falsified certificates. If a certificate was needed, a certificate could be found.

Apparently he needed a permit for begging around the shrine, understandably enough, and it surely would not be so easy to fool those tasked with confirming that he was crippled and unable to work; but perhaps those relevant authorities were also in on the scheme from the beginning.

A poor boy returns and for months people see him hobbling round. The story is digested and becomes fact. The parents apply for assistance and Jesus has said that a cup of water given in his name, or a certificate to beg, would assure the givers a place in paradise.

But I'm sure you will agree that there is no basis for supposing certainty, or anything even remotely approaching certainty, that non-miraculous conspiracy speculations are what actually happened.

If all that's asked is honest doubt, you have it. I've a friend who assails me from time to time with wonder at Our Lady's global appearances. Apart from her holidays in Lourdes and Fatima she's of course been to Knock, in County Mayo and she has manifested herself at Medjugorje and last century displayed her skills on the roof of an Egyptian Church. A by-product of this appearance was a man's finger saved from a gangrenous infection.


Who knows?

[Mithrae]

And the surgeons who testified under oath that they had amputated the leg were all simply lying, sure.

I haven't seen reference to sworn testimony but of course mistakes are made, people do err. even surgeons. Today we have doctors practising with falsified certificates. If a certificate was needed, a certificate could be found.

It's interesting that when I looked into the story, it seems the most popular 'debunking' of the miracle is the one by Brian Dunning of Skeptoid who asserts and emphasizes that "There is no documentation or witness accounts confirming his leg was ever gone"... yet Vittorio Messori's book to which Dunning responds explicitly cites precisely that documentation. It took me only a couple of hours to find online a scanned version of one of the notarized copies made of the original records, by following a 2013 forum post, yet 5-6 years later Skeptoid - the second-highest result from Googling either 'miracle of Calanda' or 'Miguel Juan Pellicer' - still promotes its obviously and brazenly false claim to the world.

The sworn testimonies from the hospital include:

• > Licentiate Juan de Estanga, the primary surgeon who amputated the leg and continued care for Pellicer over the following months.
  > Master in Surgery Diego Millaruelo, who helped with the amputation and confirmed Pellicer's identity and Estanga's ongoing care of him.
  > Licentiate Pascual del Cacho mostly heard others talking about the operation, it seems, but did see the amputated leg on the ground and treated Pellicer a little afterwards.
  > Mancebo Juan Lorenzo Garcia who buried the leg, but of Pellicer said he "does not know by name, only did he see him with a wounded leg."

Apparently he needed a permit for begging around the shrine, understandably enough, and it surely would not be so easy to fool those tasked with confirming that he was crippled and unable to work; but perhaps those relevant authorities were also in on the scheme from the beginning.

A poor boy returns and for months people see him hobbling round. The story is digested and becomes fact. The parents apply for assistance and Jesus has said that a cup of water given in his name, or a certificate to beg, would assure the givers a place in paradise.

Pellicer's leg was amputated in Zaragosa and that's where he lived and begged for two years; his parents lived in Calanda about 100km away.

But I'm sure you will agree that there is no basis for supposing certainty, or anything even remotely approaching certainty, that non-miraculous conspiracy speculations are what actually happened.

If all that's asked is honest doubt, you have it. I've a friend who assails me from time to time with wonder at Our Lady's global appearances. Apart from her holidays in Lourdes and Fatima she's of course been to Knock, in County Mayo and she has manifested herself at Medjugorje and last century displayed her skills on the roof of an Egyptian Church. A by-product of this appearance was a man's finger saved from a gangrenous infection.

Who knows?

Many of the atheists and 'sceptics' on this forum, it seems; they know that miracles are impossible I've made two threads about this 'miracle of Calanda' over the past 17 months and I don't think a single critic of religion has acknowledged any uncertainty on the subject, any distinct possibility of the healed amputation being genuine. Congratulations on being the first.

Now I need to find a Christian willing to acknowledge that this miracle is much better-evidenced than those reported of Jesus, yet still far from certain.

[marco]

[Replying to post 23 by Mithrae]


There are things in my life that have caused a shudder of awe. We are still a race of people fenced off from an invisible world of gods and angels. When we come to the edge of our understanding we have no other choice than to attribute a wonder to another world functioning beyond our powers. A close colleague saw the shape of a minister walk through a room he was in, with two companions, who were terrified out of their wits. They were told by locals that the minister had been seen by many people. One wonders in what way God can be involved here.

A policeman relative investigated the sighting of some strange craft, the location of which is now famously marked. I attended a funeral of a young friend and while I was reminiscing about a past conversation with him, an absolutely astonishing cincidence occurred, on which a few people commented.


I have worked in mathematics long enough to discover an order, a wisdom, a world of coincidence if you like that defies scepticism with beautiful proof. My quibble is transferring our wonder to a world of demi-deities. I think in some era beyond our own we might strike our foreheads and shout, with Archimedes, "Eureka."But I don't think the clouds will open and support a man from the time of Nero.