Matthew 16:28-29:

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Elijah John
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Re: Matthew 16:28-29:

Post #11

Post by Elijah John »

Checkpoint wrote: This opening post comes from an exchange between Elijah John and me, Checkpoint.

The issue raised was the validity or otherwise of combining verses 28 and 29 of Matthew 16 as being a text in its proper context, or not.

Here now, without further ado, is the exchange.


Elijah John wrote
No interpretation, let's let the text speak for itself. What does this mean, in your opinion?
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
Checkpoint wrote
Here we go again, E.J.

Who chose what you now quote as being "the text"?

It is not a text but rather a portion of two texts joined together to make what is an artificial text.

It is the end of one text and the beginning of another text.

Both are therefore out of their own context.

"A text taken out of its context becomes a pretext for a prooftext".
Elijah John wrote
In my Bible verses 27 and 28 are in the same paragraph. Same paragraph, same subject. The way I read it Jesus was speaking of his 2nd coming in verse 27. How do you read it?

And in 28 he was referring to his contemporary listener, "some standing here".

Jesus still has not returned in judgement with his Father's angels. Are his contemporaries still alive?

Having said this, I see what you mean. I did a little research and yes, some versions have v 27 +28 in different paragraphs. Others, including the ASV, RSV, NRSV, NJB, have the two verses in the same paragraph.

But that would indeed make a world of difference. Was Jesus shifting topics here? Almost like stream of consciousness? Or not.
OK, well then, what is your question for debate? Please formulate one. Right now it seems you have only presented an exchange that we had.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Post #12

Post by Elijah John »

Checkpoint wrote:
Imprecise Interrupt wrote: The Codex Sinaiticus dates to the 4th century, As can be seen here, the 4th century scribes thought that verses 24-28 were all one paragraph. In the right-hand panel, scroll around and you will see that verse 23 completes a paragraph (trailing blank space) and verse 24 begins a paragraph (reverse indent on first line). Verse 28 does not start a new paragraph. It ends a paragraph. 17:1 begins a new paragraph.

It is easier to see all this if you click off the image button above the right pane, making the right panel larger. With the image button clicked on, you can see in the left panel that these paragraph indicators exist in the original manuscript.

The 4th century scribes thought that verse 28 was part of the same thought as verses 24-27. Were they wrong?
Anyone can be wrong and anyone can be right.

What those scribes thought is of interest, but each of us must make our own judgment based on the wider context.
Not only "those scribes" but the editors of the Jerusalem, the New Jerusalem Bibles, the ASV, the RSV, the NRSV etc. They are reputable translations that all have verses 27 and 28 in the same paragraph.

And the "wider context" favors the interpretation that 27 and 28 were part of the same paragraph, thus the same topic. That Jesus, (or Matthew) expected his 2nd coming to occur in the lifetime of his apostles. In this, Jesus, (or Mattthew) was in synch with most of the NT authors in the expectation that the 2nd coming of Christ would occur in their own lifetimes. Consider:

Rev. 1.1,
Rev 1.3
Rev. 22.7
Rev. 22.12
Rev 22.20
John 21.21-23
1 John 2,17-18
1Cor 10.11
1 Cor 7.29
Rom. 13.11-12
Rom. 16.20
Heb 1.2
James 5.8-9
1 Pet 1.20
1 Pet 4.7
1Pet 4.17

Context favors the interpretation that they were all (including Jesus) only human and were simply mistaken. Jesus did not "come soon", and in the lifetimes of the NT authors. They thought they were in the "last days" and in the "end times". They were not, their expectation for Christ's immediate return has been unfulfilled for over 2000 years and counting.

Unless the terms "last days", "soon". "near" etc. are twisted and stretched beyond comprehension and ordinary usage..
Last edited by Elijah John on Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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JehovahsWitness
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Post #13

Post by JehovahsWitness »

QUESTION Does every reference in the bible to "Last days" or "judgement" refer to Christ's second coming?

♦ANSWER No. A typical "rookie" mistake is to think that every occurance of a word refers to the same person or event. This is because many bible readers don't take context, subject matter, audience, timeframe or even the actual words used* into account. They are also rarely aware that prophecies often have double applications (minor and major).
  • [ * ]READER ERROR: Some expressions actually carry no time indications at all but are simple expressions of faith, 1 John 2,17 is an example of this it reads ..." Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever." All believers in the original Edenic judgement have understood that Satan's system of things ("this world") is condemned, dying "passing away"... heading for its end. All also entertain the hope of an eventual eternal reward sometime in the future.
Below is a list of text which it is claimed support the idea that the biblical writers preached a first century "return of Christ" sorted and explained according to context.
FALSE EXPECTATIONS
John 21.21-23 So when he caught sight of him, Peter said to Jesus: “Lord, what about this man? Jesus said to him: If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me. So the saying went out among the brothers that this disciple would not die. However, Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but he said: If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you?
  • EXPLANATION: While it is true false expectations and interpretations arose within the first century Christian community, the inspired bible writers, Apostles and first century Christian leaders had as a commission to correct errors and counteract false rumours. For example the writer of the gospel of John clarifies Jesus did not say the Apostle in question would not die, he affirms that Jesus posed a supposition not an affirmation.


PROPHECY
Rev. 1.1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John

Rev 1.3 Happy is the one who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy and who observe the things written in it, for the appointed time is near

Rev. 22.7 Look! I am coming quickly. Happy is anyone observing the words of the prophecy of this scroll.

Rev. 22.12 Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to repay each one according to his work.

Rev 22.20 The one who bears witness of these things says, Yes, I am coming quickly.

Rom. 16.20 For his part, the God who gives peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.
  • EXPLANATION: Prophecy is effectively "history written in advance". For example a Prophet may describe an event as already happened although in fact it remains many thousand of years in the future. The introduction of the book of REVELATION has John, the writer, claim to be projected forward in time to what he calls "The Lords day" (see Rev 1 verse 10). From this projected future standpoint, all the prophetic events can be described as coming "quickly" , "shortly" "near" or "soon" from a divine perspective (Compare Romans 16:20 also a prophetic pronouncement)

A number of bible writers addressed events during or at the end of the first century. These were as follows


"DAY" OF SPIRITUAL ENLIGHTENMENT 30CE ONWARDS
Rom. 13.11-12 And do this because you know the season, that it is already the hour for you to awake from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than at the time when we became believers. 12 The night is well along; the day has drawn near. Let us therefore throw off the works belonging to darkness and let us put on the weapons of the light.

Heb 1.2 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.
  • 2 CORINTHIANS 6: 1,2 : " Working together with him, we also urge you not to accept the undeserved kindness of God and miss its purpose. For he says: In an acceptable time I heard you, and in a day of salvation I helped you. Look! Now is the especially acceptable time. Look! Now is the day of salvation.


JUDGEMENT OF NEW CHRISTIAN ARRANGEMENT (Compare Hebrews 3:6) PENTECOST 33 CE ONWARDS
1Pet 4.17 But if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed, but let him keep on glorifying God while bearing this name. 17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God.

James 5.8-9You too exercise patience; make your hearts firm, because the presence of the Lord has drawn close. 1 THESSELONICANS 3:13 "... so that he may make your hearts firm, blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the presence of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones.


END OF THE JEWISH SYSTEM : 70CE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMLPLE
1Cor 10.11 Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us+ upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come.

1 Pet 1.20...you were set free from your futile way of life handed down to you by your forefathers. 19 But it was with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, that of Christ. True, he was foreknown before the founding of the world,+ but he was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake.

1 Cor 7.29 Moreover, this I say, brothers, the time left is reduced

1 Pet 4.7 But the end of all things has drawn close.

ADVENT OF THE ANTICHRIST [emergence if apostate "false" Christianity**] END OF 1ST CENTURY CE > 2ND CENTURY
1 John 2: 18 Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour.
The "last HOUR" of first century authentic Christiany

All scriptures NWT




CONCLUSION: Jesus used very specific words and terms when speaking about his "return/coming" (Greek verb, ERKHOMAI) associated with global judgement and his "presence" (Gk PAROUSIA), associated with global events effecting all humanity leading directly to that final judgement. It would be a mistake to conclude all prophecy, references and predictions refer to these two specific events when context and language indicates otherwise




FURTHER READING:

Are We Living in the Last Days?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... last-days/

1914 - A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... -prophecy/[/quote]



JW


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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:28 am, edited 23 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Matthew 16:28-29:

Post #14

Post by marco »

Checkpoint wrote:
Matthew 16 wrote:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Here are comparable verses written by Paul to other believers:
1 Corinthians 15:51 wrote:Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Both sets of verses are discussing what will happen to believers who are alive at the Second Coming!

The two sets are not grammatically comparable. "There are some standing here" is not an implied future. Christ would have to have said: "There are some who WILL be standing here...." No listener would take the meaning to refer to future people "standing here" and they would have no grammatical entitlement to do so.

If indeed Jesus was saying that when Christ comes at some future period, there will be people around, this is a rather trivial observation, since it would be pointless for him to land on an unpopulated Earth, with a showy retinue no one would see.

Paul's words use the 2nd person plural, so they actually suggest we are dealing with people alive at Paul's time. We would otherwise have to play further linguistic gymnastics with the pronoun "we."


If people seek a secondary meaning in Christ's words they are implying that Christ expressed himself imperfectly and ambiguously in one of his major pronouncements. Is that theologically possible?

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Post #15

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 13 by JehovahsWitness]

So, historical Jesus scholars like John Dominic Crossan, Bart Ehrmann, Marcus Borg, Karen Armstrong and John Shelby Spong are all "rookies" because they disagree with you and Watchtower "scholars" and instead accept the notion that the authors of the NT were all expecting imminent (immediate) apocalyptic fullfillemnt? I.e. the "second coming of Christ"?

"Rookie mistakes" indeed. :study: :shock:
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Post #16

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 15 by Elijah John]

I dont know, I havent read their work so I dont know what errors if any, they may or may not have made. I should think if they are competent bible scholars they would not make the mistake of ignoring context themes, audience, timescale and language ect.


JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #17

Post by marco »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 15 by Elijah John]

I dont know, I havent read their work so I dont know what errors if any, they may or may not have made. I should think if they are competent bible scholars they would not make the mistake of ignoring context themes, audience, timescale and language ect.

Just because we have a wish list to pay attention to context, themes, audience, timescale and language - all things that any humble translator is aware of - does not mean we free ourselves from prejudice. It appears that we have an OBVIOUS meaning, consistent with an oral delivery to non-intellectuals and we have a recondite interpretation whose sole virtue is that it accords with some idiosyncratic theological position.

Do we choose to go by what Scripture says or do we prefer to suit our own tastes? Tough decision.

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Post #18

Post by Tcg »

marco wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 15 by Elijah John]

I dont know, I havent read their work so I dont know what errors if any, they may or may not have made. I should think if they are competent bible scholars they would not make the mistake of ignoring context themes, audience, timescale and language ect.

Just because we have a wish list to pay attention to context, themes, audience, timescale and language - all things that any humble translator is aware of - does not mean we free ourselves from prejudice. It appears that we have an OBVIOUS meaning, consistent with an oral delivery to non-intellectuals and we have a recondite interpretation whose sole virtue is that it accords with some idiosyncratic theological position.

Do we choose to go by what Scripture says or do we prefer to suit our own tastes? Tough decision.

It just may be a "rookie" who accepts the obvious meaning as they expect the scripture to mean what it says. It can take years of coaching to advance to a veteran level when one has learned how to make the scripture not say what it clearly says.


Explaining Jesus' obvious tardiness has allowed many to achieve this "veteran" status.



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Post #19

Post by JehovahsWitness »

marco wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 15 by Elijah John]

I dont know, I havent read their work so I dont know what errors if any, they may or may not have made. I should think if they are competent bible scholars they would not make the mistake of ignoring context themes, audience, timescale and language ect.

Just because we have a wish list to pay attention to context, themes, audience, timescale and language - all things that any humble translator is aware of - does not mean we free ourselves from prejudice. It appears that we have an OBVIOUS meaning, consistent with an oral delivery to non-intellectuals and we have a recondite interpretation whose sole virtue is that it accords with some idiosyncratic theological position.

Do we choose to go by what Scripture says or do we prefer to suit our own tastes? Tough decision.

Thank you, very good points. I couldn't agree more.



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THE BIBLE , HERMENEUTICS* and ... BEST TRANSLATION
* bible interpretation
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Matthew 16:27-28:

Post #20

Post by Checkpoint »

Elijah John wrote:
Checkpoint wrote: This opening post comes from an exchange between Elijah John and me, Checkpoint.

The issue raised was the validity or otherwise of combining verses 28 and 29 of Matthew 16 as being a text in its proper context, or not.

Here now, without further ado, is the exchange.


Elijah John wrote
No interpretation, let's let the text speak for itself. What does this mean, in your opinion?
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
Checkpoint wrote
Here we go again, E.J.

Who chose what you now quote as being "the text"?

It is not a text but rather a portion of two texts joined together to make what is an artificial text.

It is the end of one text and the beginning of another text.

Both are therefore out of their own context.

"A text taken out of its context becomes a pretext for a prooftext".
Elijah John wrote
In my Bible verses 27 and 28 are in the same paragraph. Same paragraph, same subject. The way I read it Jesus was speaking of his 2nd coming in verse 27. How do you read it?

And in 28 he was referring to his contemporary listener, "some standing here".

Jesus still has not returned in judgement with his Father's angels. Are his contemporaries still alive?

Having said this, I see what you mean. I did a little research and yes, some versions have v 27 +28 in different paragraphs. Others, including the ASV, RSV, NRSV, NJB, have the two verses in the same paragraph.

But that would indeed make a world of difference. Was Jesus shifting topics here? Almost like stream of consciousness? Or not.
OK, well then, what is your question for debate? Please formulate one. Right now it seems you have only presented an exchange that we had.
My question for debate was this:
Matthew 16:28-29:
Is this a text or is it a pretext?
I am correcting it (my apology, everyone!) to now read:
Matthew 16:27-28:
Is this a text or is it a pretext?

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