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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:53 am
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John 5 23 - divinity claim?

Like this post (1): Overcomer
Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.

Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:03 am
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Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?

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Wootah wrote:

Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.

Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?



Did Jesus actually say the word "equally"?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:27 am
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Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?

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[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

How does that help? If I do anything to honour the Father that I don't do for the Son then Im not listening to that verse.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:40 am
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Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?

Like this post (1): onewithhim
[Replying to post 3 by Wootah]

Is honour mutually exclusive? Can one not honour both Jesus and his father ,; honour Jesus because he is God's son, honour JEHOVAH because he is the Almighty and superior to everyone (including the son) and ... and honour our parents because they looked after us and taught us as children?

Quote:
DEUTERONOMY 5:16

Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you...



Is that not possible?


Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:05 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:52 am
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Like this post (1): tigger2
I didn't realize there are levels of honor. The Bible says to honor my parents. (Ex 20:12) It also says to honor to men of all sorts. (1 Peter 2:17) Yes honor Jesus and honor his Father Jehovah. I see no difference made in the level of honor in any verse. You either honor someone or you don't. There is no 'kind of honoring' someone. Kind of honoring someone is like being 'kind of pregnant'. No one be 'kind of pregnant'. On/off, up/down, dead/alive, honor/dishonor etc etc.

"He's only mostly dead" - Princess Bride

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:42 pm
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[Replying to 2timothy316]

Easily disproven. In a running race the person that comes first is honoured with a gold medal and the person that comes second with a silver medal. But it would be wrong to honour second with a gold medal abd even more wrong to honour them with two gold medals.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:44 pm
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Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?

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[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes you can honour both. Would you honour Jesus more or less than God?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:55 pm
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Wootah wrote:

[Replying to 2timothy316]

Easily disproven. In a running race the person that comes first is honoured with a gold medal and the person that comes second with a silver medal. But it would be wrong to honour second with a gold medal abd even more wrong to honour them with two gold medals.

You're not describing honor, your describing a reward. All are honored, the metals are not honor. There is even an 'honorable mention' metal. To honor someone is to "regard with great respect". Metals have nothing to do with real honor. This is something mankind has invented for completion. Different metals are rewards for when one person is better at another in a particular field. Jehovah and His Son are not in completion with each other.

There are no degrees of honor. If you are not fully honoring someone than you are dishonoring them. No one has to dishonor Jesus in order to honor Jehovah. I don't dishonor my mother in some way so just so that I can honor my father more. I honor them the same. So you metal analogy is not a good representation.


Last edited by 2timothy316 on Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:07 pm
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Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?

Like this post (1): onewithhim
Wootah wrote:

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes you can honour both. Would you honour Jesus more or less than God?



I would honour Jesus less than God. Jesus has never asked for any glory or honour that belonged to his father.




JW


Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:08 pm
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If there are degrees of honor:

John 5:23 does not have to mean that the honor given to the Son has to be exactly equal in quantity and quality as that given to the Father.

For example,

“just as [kathos] Moses lifted up the [copper] serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up” - John 3:14, NRSV.

These two events are hardly exactly equal. There is a degree of similarity only. Just as there was a “lifting up” in one part of the comparison, there was also a “lifting up” (of a different kind and to a different degree) in the other part. We know Moses didn’t lift up a timber as large and heavy as the one Jesus died on. We know he didn’t swing it up and anchor one end in a hole in the ground until the copper serpent died a horrible death. We know that the one act was much more important than the other in all respects. It was a similar act only in a certain respect and to a certain degree.

And examine Luke 11:30,
“Just as [kathos] Jonah became a sign to the people of Ninevah, so the Son of man will be to this generation,” - NRSV

This does not mean the two signs are equal either literally or figuratively. The details of the sign to the Ninevites were very different from the sign of Jesus’ death and resurrection. The degree of importance of the sign of Jonah was much less than that of Jesus!

And John 17:16,
“[Jesus' followers] are not of the world, just as [kathos] I am not of the world.” - NKJV

It would be foolish to insist that, in every aspect of the phrase, Jesus’ followers were not of the world precisely as he was not. We could, in such a case, end up ‘proving’ that Jesus’ followers had been created in heaven as spirit persons before all the rest of creation, just as he had been. (Or for trinitarians, that they had always existed as God Himself from all eternity.)

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