Atheists like me generally regard the Jehovah god of the biblical writings to be as mythological and imaginary as any other ethnic deity.
Other folks claim that Jehovah (or Yahweh, or Whatever) is God with a capital G. I say this is a false claim, and find numerous ways to point out the falsity.
I was taught in Sunday school that "God" resided in the Ark of the Covenant when he visited us in pre-Jesus times.
The biblical writings tell us that the Ark of the Covenant was a magic wooden box. The Israelites would consult the magic box, and sprinkle blood on it, and Jehovah would speak to them from the magic box.
When Moses entered the tent of meeting to speak with Jehovah, he heard the voice speaking to him from between the two cherubim above the atonement cover on the ark of the covenant law. In this way Jehovah spoke to him.
The magic box would also cause plagues and zap thousands of people just for looking at it.
Do stories of Jehovah and the Magic Box support my position that the biblical Jehovah is just another imaginary Middle-East lowercase god, surrounded by primitive fantasy and make-believe …?
Jehovah and the Magic Box
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- rikuoamero
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Re: Jehovah and the Magic Box
Post #11A quick read through of Exodus doesn't reveal to me anything that says God was in the box...but he apparently was in the Most Holy Place, a sacred room within a sacred tent. This room was where the ark was kept.
Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"
I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead
Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense
Re: Jehovah and the Magic Box
Post #12My FULL sentence was …
I was taught in Sunday school that "God" resided in the Ark of the Covenant when he visited us in pre-Jesus times.
I WAS TAUGHT IN SUNDAY SCHOOL … is most important here. The brainwashing process can involve certain "simplifications" and "amplifications", or "making it up as you go along", as a member has helpfully pointed out here.
Nonetheless, the sectarian literature certainly has the mythological Jehovah god speaking from between the wings of the magic wooden box.
Splitting feathers over minutiae deflects from the point that it appears we are dealing with primitive make-believe.
Unless, of course, persons of faith (or anyone) can demonstrate that Jehovah and the Magic Box exist anywhere outside the sectarian literature and the imaginations of believers.
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
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Re: Jehovah and the Magic Box
Post #13I think modern people should be able to understand that hearing voice from some direction doesn’t necessary mean that the person who speaks is also in the same location. Like for example if you look at TV, people are not actually inside the box, even though it may look like that.SallyF wrote: ...Nonetheless, the sectarian literature certainly has the mythological Jehovah god speaking from between the wings of the magic wooden box....
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Re: Jehovah and the Magic Box
Post #14.
Since there were evidently no electronic devices thousands of years ago, was 'God' being a ventriloquist to fool people? OR might someone else have been a ventriloquist to fool people into thinking it was 'God'?1213 wrote:I think modern people should be able to understand that hearing voice from some direction doesn’t necessary mean that the person who speaks is also in the same location. Like for example if you look at TV, people are not actually inside the box, even though it may look like that.SallyF wrote: ...Nonetheless, the sectarian literature certainly has the mythological Jehovah god speaking from between the wings of the magic wooden box....
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Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Re: Jehovah and the Magic Box
Post #15[Replying to post 11 by rikuoamero]
I am always surprised, when individuals begin to make claims (about the bible) from a quick read. Religious common sense makes it clear that God isn't confined…So, God wasn't in the ark of the covenant. Yet, the bible also makes it clear that God did not continue with Israel, after they left Mount Sinai. So, God would not "actually" be present in the Most Holy Place! The presence of God was fulfilled through God's angel...
In Exodus 3:2-6, it is clear that the angel of Lord appeared to Moses, within a burning bush that was not consumed. This angel was a messenger, who would instruct Moses concerning what he would do. So, it doesn't seem that God was actually instructing Moses, the angel was…However, the instructions surely came from God's will.
In Exodus 33:1-5, Moses is instructed that God will not go up in the midst of Israel or as understood, within the tabernacle. Yet, an angel would! In verse 14, it is stated that God's presence would go with Moses. Yet, in Isaiah 63:7-9 this presence is referred to as an angel…
In Exodus 40:34-38, the cloud of the Lord or His angel appeared during the day and filled the entire tabernacle, which was a sign to stay put and when the cloud was removed, they journeyed. Even at night, the fire of the Lord or His angel was also upon the tabernacle. Thus, the glory of God was always visible to them during this time period. This would continue, until the death of Moses.
Therefore, it is just about impossible for the non-religious, the anti-God and even many who claim to be religious to understand the workings of the bible. This understanding can only come by the will of God or His Son, not by only reading man's written words…
rikuoamero wrote:A quick read through of Exodus doesn't reveal to me anything that says God was in the box...but he apparently was in the Most Holy Place, a sacred room within a sacred tent. This room was where the ark was kept.
I am always surprised, when individuals begin to make claims (about the bible) from a quick read. Religious common sense makes it clear that God isn't confined…So, God wasn't in the ark of the covenant. Yet, the bible also makes it clear that God did not continue with Israel, after they left Mount Sinai. So, God would not "actually" be present in the Most Holy Place! The presence of God was fulfilled through God's angel...
In Exodus 3:2-6, it is clear that the angel of Lord appeared to Moses, within a burning bush that was not consumed. This angel was a messenger, who would instruct Moses concerning what he would do. So, it doesn't seem that God was actually instructing Moses, the angel was…However, the instructions surely came from God's will.
In Exodus 33:1-5, Moses is instructed that God will not go up in the midst of Israel or as understood, within the tabernacle. Yet, an angel would! In verse 14, it is stated that God's presence would go with Moses. Yet, in Isaiah 63:7-9 this presence is referred to as an angel…
In Exodus 40:34-38, the cloud of the Lord or His angel appeared during the day and filled the entire tabernacle, which was a sign to stay put and when the cloud was removed, they journeyed. Even at night, the fire of the Lord or His angel was also upon the tabernacle. Thus, the glory of God was always visible to them during this time period. This would continue, until the death of Moses.
Therefore, it is just about impossible for the non-religious, the anti-God and even many who claim to be religious to understand the workings of the bible. This understanding can only come by the will of God or His Son, not by only reading man's written words…
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Re: Jehovah and the Magic Box
Post #16.
This is a textbook example of the Logical Fallacy Special PleadingFWI wrote: Therefore, it is just about impossible for the non-religious, the anti-God and even many who claim to be religious to understand the workings of the bible. This understanding can only come by the will of God or His Son, not by only reading man's written words…
Special Pleading: Applying standards, principles, and/or rules to other people or circumstances, while making oneself or certain circumstances exempt from the same critical criteria, without providing adequate justification. Special pleading is often a result of strong emotional beliefs that interfere with reason.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/too ... l_Pleading
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Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Re: Jehovah and the Magic Box
Post #17[Replying to post 15 by FWI]
More magical things to believe in …!!!
This magical stuff is found (to the best of my knowledge) only in the sectarian literature.
But it could have come from Harry Potter.
We KNOW who wrote Harry Potter with the magical goings-on; we have NO idea who wrote the sectarian literature with the magical goings on. And no one I know of is claiming that Harry Potter came from "God" And no one EVER demonstrates that so much a verse of the sectarian literature is "scripture".
It's BELIEF. A mental assent.
One is, of course, free to believe that magic wooden boxes and clouds by day and fire by night were real, and not the stuff of fantasy.
But the big advantage Potterians can have over certain Christians, is that they can distinguish between fantasy and reality.
The tiniest HINT of evidence that magic boxes and clouds and fire exist in the realm of reality will, naturally, dispel certain of my contentions that Christianity has been a fraud from the beginning.
In Exodus 40:34-38, the cloud of the Lord or His angel appeared during the day and filled the entire tabernacle, which was a sign to stay put and when the cloud was removed, they journeyed. Even at night, the fire of the Lord or His angel was also upon the tabernacle.
More magical things to believe in …!!!
This magical stuff is found (to the best of my knowledge) only in the sectarian literature.
But it could have come from Harry Potter.
We KNOW who wrote Harry Potter with the magical goings-on; we have NO idea who wrote the sectarian literature with the magical goings on. And no one I know of is claiming that Harry Potter came from "God" And no one EVER demonstrates that so much a verse of the sectarian literature is "scripture".
It's BELIEF. A mental assent.
One is, of course, free to believe that magic wooden boxes and clouds by day and fire by night were real, and not the stuff of fantasy.
But the big advantage Potterians can have over certain Christians, is that they can distinguish between fantasy and reality.
The tiniest HINT of evidence that magic boxes and clouds and fire exist in the realm of reality will, naturally, dispel certain of my contentions that Christianity has been a fraud from the beginning.
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
- Danmark
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Re: Jehovah and the Magic Box
Post #18I think SallyF makes an excellent point despite the fact she does so with a bit of comic irreverence. The 'scriptures,' as well as Christian Tradition, are replete with efforts of humans to demean their own 'gods.' Thus we have the great "I AM" represented by a burning bush, a cloud, a pillar of fire, and the Ark of the Covenant. These primitive tribal folk had a hard time dealing with the idea of an eternal God, a God who is beyond mere being, who is the 'very ground of being.' So they reduced him to a being or a box, a cloud or fire. They reduced him to an idol. Eventually they had to reduce him to a man and created a god incarnate. Pfffft!ttruscott wrote:This technique used to demean the beliefs of Christians is called "telling the story badly" which was a fun game some 6 months ago on the internet but has been a staple in anti-Christian circles for millenia.SallyF wrote:The biblical writings tell us that the Ark of the Covenant was a magic wooden box. The Israelites would consult the magic box, and sprinkle blood on it, and Jehovah would speak to them from the magic box.
For me, the need for atheists and other secularists to twist the story to corrupt its meaning shows the paucity of their stance, their inability to deal with the meaning as accepted in the Bible by the people of the Bible.
A magic wooden box indeed...pffft.
Your God is too small and too human.
Re: Jehovah and the Magic Box
Post #19[Replying to post 18 by Danmark]
I think SallyF makes quite good points BECAUSE of comic irreverence.
If believers perceive what I write as comical, it's their - for me - comical beliefs they need to examine.
Comedians have long known the value parody.
And many of us have experienced the flow of divine inspiration that can come whilst perched on our own Mercy Seats in our Holy of Holies
I think SallyF makes an excellent point despite the fact she does so with a bit of comic irreverence.
I think SallyF makes quite good points BECAUSE of comic irreverence.
If believers perceive what I write as comical, it's their - for me - comical beliefs they need to examine.
Comedians have long known the value parody.
And many of us have experienced the flow of divine inspiration that can come whilst perched on our own Mercy Seats in our Holy of Holies
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.