“Leave it to God’s plan.�

[Zzyzx]

.
Today I encountered a religious commercial that said, “Leave it to God’s plan.�

What the heck is that advising people to do?

Is ‘whatever happens’ supposed to be ‘God’s plan’?

Does God plan human lives?

[Divine Insight]

• Biblically when we speak of God's PURPOSE, we are speaking about the final conditions God desires to exist, what he wants to see when his plans are completed.

This is an apology for a desperate theology that clearly has serious problems. An omnipotent omniscient God should have plans that don't go precisely as planned. You are allowing that your God is as inept and ignorant as mortal humans. You need a God that is extremely vulnerable to making stupid mistakes, just like mortal humans.

To illustrate: Imagine a man contracts a builder to build him a house. The finshed house would be the PURPOSE (what he, the man wants in the end). Although he may expect a guarantee that the design, material and deadline be respected, the man may not choose to control every aspect of every life connected (or indeed unconnectdd) to the project. He may, for example choose not to dictate what the builders have for breakfast, what they listen to on the way to work, how many times they hit a nail into a plank of wood, what time they break for lunch etc. So the man may be ALLOWING the builders a certain amount of freedom, (not controlling everything they do) as long as the final result is, the house is built as stipulated.

Sorry, but all you've done here is compare your God with an inept human who is neither omnipotent, nor omniscient. So the apology fails.

Apparently you've bought into this apology, but expecting others to buy into such an obviously failed apology doesn't make any sense.

In a similar way God guarantees that his purpose for mankind (life in a paradise "house") will happen according to his design and within his time frame. So while he has and will, intervene to ensure his purpose, this does not mean that God has chosen to micro-manage the life and actions of every human on earth while progress is being made. In other words, most of the things that happen on planet earth are not what he wants or desires but what he is ALLOWING while his plans progress.[/list]

But in this religion God's purpose is not fulfilled. You seem to be forgetting that in this religion ever single human fails God's purpose. Not only this but the overwhelming vast majority of this God's pet humans are condemned. This is even verified by Jesus himself in the NT when he claims that only a few humans will make it into the Kingdom of God. Therefore it could never have been God's plan to have ALL humans live in paradise for eternity.

Not only this, but this religion also demands that not a single solitary human who even makes it into his eternal paradise has earned the right to be there based on their own free will choices. The only humans who are permitted entry are those who have confessed that they are indeed unworthy and have accepted Christ as their penal substitute scapegoat.

Was that the original plan? If so it seems like a pretty sick plan.

This is the best this God could do? That's not at all impressive. This God wasn't capable of creating so much as a single solitary human who could earn the final goal on their own merit. Remember Jesus can't count as a human who had earned eternal life. Jesus was supposed to be either God himself, or a virgin born demigod. Neither of which would qualify as a successful human.

So this theology fails in every way possible. And the apologies you keep regurgitating from the Jehovah's Witness don't make any sense. All you are doing is showing us that you are more than willing to accept and embrace obviously failed apologies for a failed theology.

WAS THE REBELLION IN EDEN PART OF GOD'S PLAN?

• Absolutely not, it was contrary to his express will and purpose but he saw fit to allow it, confident that his purpose (the house) would still be built in the end.

But according to this theology that original plan failed miserably. You seem to be forgetting that this theology demands that the vast majority of humans fail to meet this God's requirements. So the plan fails for the vast majority of humans. Was that God's original plan? To create countless millions of humans who would we need to condemn to hell? That's a pretty sick plan if you ask me. Not a theology that I would buy into as making any sort of sense. Sounds far more like a very poorly made-up human fable.

CONCLUSION: Nothing can change God's purpose but this does not mean nothing that is not Gods purpose can happen. God has accorded humans free will which means that he has given them the freedom to do things he does not desire and that are contrary to his will and purpose, for them and for the planet. Those that opposed Jehovah God are entirely responsible for their actions.


JW

But this apology doesn't fly either. For one thing most non-believers in this absurd religion reject it precisely because it's self-contradictory, illogical, and the apologies given for it make no sense.

They don't reject this religion because they have opposed this fictitious God. In fact, many non-believers have far higher moral standards that both the God described in this religion and the many of the people who claim to follow it.

NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

That's exactly correct. In other words, you don't even have a personal opinion on this religion. All you are doing is passing on the failed apologies of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization. I can even tell you what you MUST BELIEVE if you want to claim to be speaking on behalf of the JW organization.

I've read their pamphlets and apologies many times and I have seen how their apologies fail in ever single case. They haven't make a good apology for this religion since they were founded.

Their apologies require that their God is just as much at the mercy of an unpredictable world as humans are. Moreover, as I had outlined above, unless this God's Master Plan was to have the vast majority of humans he create be condemned then he has no successful plan. And if that was his original plan then why would that have been? There must have been something this God could not control (Thus he cannot be omnipotent). Or there must have been things he could not have foreseen (Thus he cannot be omniscient).

There's just no way to save these ancient fables. They are self-contradictory to the point where no amount of apologizing for them could ever hope to save them.

And there's no point in even "debating" with you, because all you do is regurgitate the Jehovah's Witnesses failed apologies. You clearly have nothing additional to add. Nor could you without deviating from the JW's position on things.

I'm familiar with the position of the JW organization and they have already failed miserably to make any meaningful apologies for this theology. So the JW organization h as already failed at this. And all you are doing is beating their dead horse. Which is all you can do as long as you want to claim to be speaking for them.

So you can't even offer an opinion of your own other than to say that you'll apparently believe and pass on any apologies that the JW organization hand to you in pamphlet form.

I've read those pamphlets and those apologies are every bit as self-contradictory as the Bible they are trying to apologize for. Their excuses for this theology fail miserably.

[JehovahsWitness]

... according to this theology that original plan failed miserably

RESPONSE

Does the Edenic rebellion represent a defeat for God?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 395#853395

Would it be accurtae to say God's original purpose for mankind has "failed"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 078#836078

* NOTE: Here we are talking about a "purpose" rather than a "plan". For more information on the difference between the two please see my earlier post:
What is the difference between a plan and a purpose?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 491#836491

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

God's plan to have ALL humans live in paradise for eternity.

QUESTION Was God's original purpose* for mankind that ALL humans live forever in paradise?

♦ANSWER No, life is not given without condition, and God is never recorded in the bible as saying He intended to give eternal life to humans irrespective of their actions . We recall in the garden of Eden Adam and Eve were instructed not to eat from a certain tree, if they disobeyed the penalty was death. Logically then, if they obeyed they would not face that penalty, and would have lived forever. Indeed there was another tree in Eden, "The tree of Life", from which they were barred access after their disobedience. We can reasonably conclude, that had Adam and Eve proved themselves obedient they would have been given permission to eat from that tree in symbol of their bejng approved to live forever.

Based on the above then, we can say that God's purpose was that obedient human descendants of Adam and Eve, be given everlasting life. The bible contains God's expressions of love for humans and his desire that nobody be destroyed, but his purpose is that those that obey Him live, as implied by the original Edenic conditions.

JW

* NOTE: Here we are talking about a "purpose" rather than a "plan". For more information on the difference between the two please see my earlier post:
What is the difference between a plan and a purpose?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 491#836491

RELATED POSTS


Does Genesis 6:3 mean humans were decreed to live no longer than 120 years?
viewtopic.php?p=1056497#p1056497

What does the bible mean by "forever" when it speaks of the righteous living on earth ?
viewtopic.php?p=1075557#p1075557

Is there a difference between purposing something to happen and allowing it to happen?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 43#p967743

What is the difference between a plan and a purpose?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 91#p836491

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

LIFE, HUMAN SUFFERING and ...THE PURPOSE OF LIFE

[JehovahsWitness]

God has, apparently, all knowledge at His disposal, yet sometimes chooses not to know some of it.... it seems to me that a reasonable anthropomorphism is that He "forgets" some of what He knew.

Emphasis MINE

Is there a difference between having something at one's disposal (available) and using/ availing oneself of that thing? For example if one has the keys to a car Mercedes and can drive it any time one wants but has never used the keys, does one have to "forget" the time kne used the keys ?



JW

[Divine Insight]

QUESTION Was God's original purpose* for mankind that ALL humans live forever in paradise?

♦ANSWER No, life is not given without condition, and God is never recorded in the bible as saying He intended to give eternal life to humans irrespective of their actions . We recall in the garden of Eden Adam and Eve were instructed not to eat from a certain tree, if they disobeyed the penalty was death. Logically then, if they obeyed they would not face that penalty, and would have lived forever. Indeed there was another tree in Eden, "The tree of Life", from which they were barred access after their disobedience. We can reasonably conclude, that had Adam and Eve proved themselves obedient they would have been given permission to eat from that tree in symbol of their bejng approved to live forever.

JW

But again, all you are doing here is passing on the failed apologies of the JW organization. In some sense your posts should be banned as spam.

Why do you continue to buy into these obviously failed apologies?

If there was a God who created humans and wanted to explain to them that they would need to earn eternal life, then he could have easily done that. But that's not the Biblical story. So the apology you just copy and pasted from JW.org above is clearly false.

Not only this, but thing about how much of an extreme failure this God would be if you accept the apology you just posted?

According to Christianity no human was able to please this God for thousands of years. This means that this God had extremely unrealistic expectations of what humans would even be able to do. A Creator God who doesn't even understand how inept he is as a creator to begin with. Apparently he couldn't create so much as a single human being who would be willing to obey him.

After thousands of years of failure this God supposedly sends himself, or his demigod Son, to earth through a virgin birth of a disobedient human woman. And then arranges to have his very own corrupt priests call for his brutal crucifixion. And then offers this crucifixion up as a penal substitute for any disobedient humans who are willing to accept undeserved amnesty.

Think about JW. This would already be a God who's original plan has failed. If his original plan was to have humans EARN eternal life, then all of that was trashed with Jesus.

Apparently now the plan is to get humans to confess that they refuse to obey God and will only then be granted eternal life in spite of the fact that they have failed to earn it as was the ORIGINAL PLAN.

So there you go JW. The apology given to you by the JW.org community has failed miserably.

If this God's original plan was to have humans earn eternal life on their own merit, then that plan was completely destroyed with the coming of Jesus.

Now the only people who can obtain eternal life are those who don't deserve it, but who are willing to accept an offer of undeserved amnesty precisely becasue God's Original Plan had so miserably failed.

And we still end up with a Creator God who is such an extremely inept creator that he couldn't create so much as a single solitary human who would be willing to obey him. Nary a one.

So the apology you just offered up fails miserably.

[kcplusdc@yahoo.com]

Older i get the more i have realized that you can control very little. Honestly I have a hard enough time controling myself some days. So to me Gods plan is simular to saying grant me the peace to accept the things i cant control. Go with the flow...

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 21 by Divine Insight]

QUESTION : Is life earnt or is it a gift?

According to scripture life is not earnt as if it comes as a result of a an individual effort, one cannot "buy" life. Rather the bible states: "the gift God gives is everlasting life" (Romans 6:23) so everlasting life a gift that God will happily give to those that prove obedient to him. Indeed thag has always been God's purpose for mankind. (For more on God's purpose see links in post below)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 099#968099

JW





RELATED POSTS

What is life?
viewtopic.php?p=1083671#p1083671

When does life begin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 76#p904476

Can one earn everlasting life? [this post]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 98#p968098

Do all people have equal fundamental worth and dignity?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 39#p948839

How long could a human live? (Scroll down)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 14#p338514

Was God's original purpose that humans live forever on earth?
viewtopic.php?p=1062683#p1062683

Does Genesis 6:3 mean humans were decreed to live no longer than 120 years?
viewtopic.php?p=1056497#p1056497

What does the bible mean by "forever" when it speaks of the righteous living on earth ?
viewtopic.php?p=1075557#p1075557

Do we have to worship God just because he made us?
viewtopic.php?p=1072969#p1072969

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

LIFE, DEATH and ...THE PURPOSE OF LIFE

[JehovahsWitness]

Continued from post #26 above



PURPOSE OF LIFE

Why do humans seek purpose in life?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 42#p955342

*IS* there a purpose of life?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 055#p33405

GOD'S PUPOSE FOR MANKIND

What his God's purpose for mankind?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 14#p967714

What is the difference between a plan and a purpose?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 91#p836491

Is there a difference between wanting something and allowing it?
viewtopic.php?p=1045873#p1045873

Is there a difference between purposing something to happen and allowing it to happen?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 43#p967743

What is the difference between a plan and a purpose?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 91#p836491

Does the Edenic rebellion represent a defeat for God?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 95#p853395

Would it be accurate to say God's original purpose for mankind has "failed"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 78#p836078

Was God's original purpose* for mankind that ALL humans live forever in paradise?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 45#p967845

RELATED POSTS

What is the difference between a plan and a purpose?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 91#p836491

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

LIFE, HUMAN SUFFERING and ...THE PURPOSE OF LIFE

[Zzyzx]

.

QUESTION : Is life earnt or is it a gift?

False dichotomy

Another alternative: Is eternal life a fantasy?

Unless the latter can be established it is pointless to claim that it earned or a gift.