The glory of God,

[Revelations won]

Did God have all his glory in the beginning?

Has he received additional glory?

Will he yet receive additional glory and how?

[Revelations won]

Dear TripleZ,

You said:

“it was Adam in the garden who ruined it all for all of US humans. It is very obvious that evil abounded in heaven, by the angels who followed Lucifer, ( means the shining one ) like snakes shine and glisten when moving in the sun... Well,, too many try to " blame " God, even Adam tried to blame God when he replied,,,Gen 3:12 The man replied, "The woman you gave to be with me — she gave me fruit from the tree, and I ate." ( that YOU gave me )�

Thank you for your response. Since you claim that “Adam� ruined it for all of US humans, could you explain how and in what manner he accomplished this?

What would have happened if Adam had chosen NOT to partake of the fruit?

If you were in Adam’s position what would you have chosen to do? And why?

Best regards,
RW

[theophile]

Jeremiah 13 is insightful on this question, and one of my favorite passages ever:

• Thus said the Lord to me, “Go and buy yourself a linen loincloth, and put it on your loins, but do not dip it in water.â€� 2 So I bought a loincloth according to the word of the Lord, and put it on my loins. 3 And the word of the Lord came to me a second time, saying, 4 “Take the loincloth that you bought and are wearing, and go now to the Euphrates, and hide it there in a cleft of the rock.â€� 5 So I went, and hid it by the Euphrates, as the Lord commanded me. 6 And after many days the Lord said to me, “Go now to the Euphrates, and take from there the loincloth that I commanded you to hide there.â€� 7 Then I went to the Euphrates, and dug, and I took the loincloth from the place where I had hidden it. But now the loincloth was ruined; it was good for nothing.
  
  8 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 9 Thus says the Lord: Just so I will ruin the pride of Judah and the great pride of Jerusalem. 10 This evil people, who refuse to hear my words, who stubbornly follow their own will and have gone after other gods to serve them and worship them, shall be like this loincloth, which is good for nothing. 11 For as the loincloth clings to one’s loins, so I made the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah cling to me, says the Lord, in order that they might be for me a people, a name, a praise, and a glory. But they would not listen.

So the answer is quite simple: We are the glory of God, so God's glory is not complete from the beginning, but grows and diminishes based on us and the works that we do.

While God's works may be perfect (including giving us the mandate to order creation) our works are not.

We have not ordered creation in the way that God would have. Thus, God's glory diminishes with us, since God made us part of God's plans. (i.e., God placed all bets on us in the greatest gamble of all time - faith and hope lets us say that this was still the right thing to do, but everyday life raises massive doubts - as post after post on this site attests, not to mention the people we allow to go hungry, the animals we abuse, or the environments we ruin. To name a few of our dissenters.)

[Revelations won]

I quote from previous posts as follows:

"Dear TripleZ,

You said:

“it was Adam in the garden who ruined it all for all of US humans. It is very obvious that evil abounded in heaven, by the angels who followed Lucifer, ( means the shining one ) like snakes shine and glisten when moving in the sun... Well,, too many try to " blame " God, even Adam tried to blame God when he replied,,,Gen 3:12 The man replied, "The woman you gave to be with me — she gave me fruit from the tree, and I ate." ( that YOU gave me )�

Thank you for your response. Since you claim that “Adam� ruined it for all of US humans, could you explain how and in what manner he accomplished this?

What would have happened if Adam had chosen NOT to partake of the fruit?

If you were in Adam’s position what would you have chosen to do? And why?

Best regards,
RW"

It appears that TripleZ has no answer to his claim that "Adam screwed it up for the rest of us".

I also quote the following:

"Genesis 1:31 And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."

So according scripture it appears that everything that God had made was "VERY GOOD".
This, of course must include "The Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil."

Did God create an imperfect plan?? My answer is a resounding NO!

Perhaps the answers are best understood only when we realize that in God's perfect wisdom we as mortals need to take into full account one of the most powerful principals that apply to our eternal progression, namely the power of "AGENCY".

Is it not also very clear that God has given this exalting principle to those in heaven?
Is it also very clear that God has also given this mighty power of "AGENCY" to man in the garden of eden?

I think we need to clearly understand that this freedom to use the mighty God given power of "AGENCY" has given to man the right and ability to choose our destiny!

As I see it, God did not force even the angels in heaven to follow his eternal plan.

If Lucifer and a third of the hosts of heaven chose to rebel, then the results they faced are the result of their choice of agency. They must be held accountable for their own choices. While I admit that they had been granted full power of "AGENCY", they, in their wrongful free choice, had to accept the consequences thereof.

Moving forward to the "Garden of Eden" scenario, we again see this God given gift or power of agency at play.

I will respond to this issue in another post.

Regards,
RW

[JehovahsWitness]

I quote from previous posts as follows:

Thank you for your response. Since you claim that “Adam� ruined it for all of US humans, could you explain how and in what manner he accomplished this?

What would have happened if Adam had chosen NOT to partake of the fruit?

If you were in Adam’s position what would you have chosen to do? And why?

• He would not have died.

If you were in Adam’s position what would you have chosen to do? And why?

• I like to think I would have obeyed God. Why? Because I would have known that obedience would have been the wisest cours to take.

[Peds nurse]

We give God glory, not that He should need it, for there is nothing we can offer Him that He does not have (all things are His). We give Him glory for our benefit.

[Revelations won]

Greetings,

Moving forward to the "Garden of Eden" scenario, we again see this God given gift or power of agency at play.


For those who hold TripleZ’s view: ““it was Adam in the garden who ruined it all for all of US humans.�

I would respond as follows:

If Adam and Eve had not partaken of the fruit of the “tree of knowledge of good and evil�, which then subjected them to mortality and eventual death, then they would have lived forever as man and wife in the garden of eden. Then those holding this view must accept the principle of “Eternal marriage�.

Now let us consider the following:

"Genesis 1:31 And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.�

Now I ask a question, if the “tree of knowledge “ created by God was “VERY GOOD�, was it a good and wise decision for Adam to partake of the fruit thereof ?

Also, would it have been wise for Adam and Eve and their posterity to go through life completely ignorant with no knowledge of the difference between good and evil?

Did Adam’s choice among other things, also fulfill God’s plan of mortality for all of their descendants? Wherein Jesus Christ was as shown in:

1 Peter 1:18-20 Who verily was foreordained before the the foundation the world..

From this it would appear that God’s plan clearly included the need for a redeemer even b before the foundations of this world were organized or created.

In addition we also hear this testimony from the God’s as found in:

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil….

So with the eyes of Adam and Eve now being opened and gaining knowledge, was Adam’s use of “agency� perhaps a wise decision?