How is Jesus the Savior? Who or what does Jesus save us from?
From sin and death? People still sin, and people still die.
From the world, the flesh and the devil? YHVH does all that. (Isaiah 43.11)
Or is it salvation from YHVH Himself? If Jesus is savior, does that make Jesus the "good cop" and YHVH the "bad cop"? Jesus the hero, and YHVH the villain?
The Hebrew Scriptures already provide us with an all-sufficient Savior:
I, even I, am YHVH; and beside me there is no savior.
Why do we need another? Isn't calling Jesus "Savior" redundant..at best? And at worst, contradictory to Scripture?
Last edited by Elijah John on Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
William: Have you ever thought that perhaps YHVH and Jesus are the same being?
That is what I am told sometimes here on these boards and elsewhere.
I used to think that growing up, before I understood the doctrine of the Trinity. And before I realized that Jesus is not God, he couldn't be. (Matthew 16.28)
Besides, Jesus taught his followers to hallow the name of the Father, not himself. Why would he do this if there were no difference between them?
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
Elijah John wrote:
The Hebrew Scriptures already provide us with an all-sufficient Savior:
I, even I, am YHVH; and beside me there is no savior.
When read in context, this is a promise made to Israel. In it, YHVH claims to be Israel's savior, not the savior of the universal us you are claiming.
Tcg
A common misconception refuted by Isiah 45.22:
"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
That chapter includes these qualifications:
4- "For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
though you do not acknowledge me."
15 - "Truly you are a God who has been hiding himself,
the God and Savior of Israel."
17 - "But Israel will be saved by the Lord
with an everlasting salvation;
you will never be put to shame or disgraced,
to ages everlasting."
19 - "I have not spoken in secret,
from somewhere in a land of darkness;
I have not said to Jacob’s descendants,
‘Seek me in vain.’
I, the Lord, speak the truth;
I declare what is right."
Based on this context, it is clear that the promise is limited to Israel. It's not even questionable.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
Elijah John wrote:
The Hebrew Scriptures already provide us with an all-sufficient Savior:
I, even I, am YHVH; and beside me there is no savior.
When read in context, this is a promise made to Israel. In it, YHVH claims to be Israel's savior, not the savior of the universal us you are claiming.
Tcg
A common misconception refuted by Isiah 45.22:
"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
That chapter includes these qualifications:
4- "For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
though you do not acknowledge me."
15 - "Truly you are a God who has been hiding himself,
the God and Savior of Israel."
17 - "But Israel will be saved by the Lord
with an everlasting salvation;
you will never be put to shame or disgraced,
to ages everlasting."
19 - "I have not spoken in secret,
from somewhere in a land of darkness;
I have not said to Jacob’s descendants,
‘Seek me in vain.’
I, the Lord, speak the truth;
I declare what is right."
Based on this context, it is clear that the promise is limited to Israel. It's not even questionable.
Tcg
I don't see how you get that from the passage you cite. YHVH only seems to be saying that He is Israel's God, but that message is not exclusionary. If it were, he would not implore "the ends of the earth" to turn to Him. Israel did not occupy the "ends of the earth".
Besides, Jesus was no universal savior. He is the one who said he was sent only to "the lost sheep of Israel".
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
William:Have you ever thought that perhaps YHVH and Jesus are the same being?
Elijah John:That is what I am told sometimes here on these boards and elsewhere.
William: It is a common belief really. I have gone through a period of examining the idea that the Gnostic believe, that the OT idea of GOD was actually the Demiurge and that Jesus' mission was to introduce The Father as the true idea of GOD, because the false one was the OT idea of GOD.
I do not discount the Gnostic out of hand, but in examining their theology in light of the idea that Jesus and YWVH are one and the same being, it could be rectified through YWVH (Jesus) being 'a GOD in the making' who did a few things that as 'a GOD in the making' were not up to standard and brought ill-repute on all ideas of GOD in the minds of Human Beings...which caused problems in the Metaphysical Realm through human imagination instantly manifesting bad stuff, which is why YWVH had the plan to sort that out through the life of Jesus.
Elijah John: I used to think that growing up, before I understood the doctrine of the Trinity. And before I realized that Jesus is not God, he couldn't be. (Matthew 16.28)
Matthew: Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
William: Do you think that Jehovah could not accomplish something like this? To keep individual humans alive in the Physical Universe, even indefinitely, but certainly for a couple of thousand years?
Elijah John: Besides, Jesus taught his followers to hallow the name of the Father, not himself. Why would he do this if there were no difference between them?
William: For the same reason he did as The LORD, in old testament times.
One has to always remember that this is a GOD who has a particularly difficult job to do by largely keeping out of the Human Drama, whilst also nudging things along now and again.
The affect that Jehovah had on Ancient Israel tended towards Jehovah having to make counter moves.
We cannot be sure that The LORD ordered Abraham to sacrifice Isaac but we can be sure that this is how the story is told.
Therefore, either way, Elohim have to interfere in order to help swing Human thinking away from the idea that any actual GOD would demand such a thing.
Thus, Jesus becomes Jehovah's answer for damage control.
And thus, we have Jesus making sure that Human understanding about GOD is not delegated to images they make up about what GOD is, which are not true.
Jesus/Jehovah no more want to be misrepresented by Human beliefs, thus he points - not to himself or Jehovah. He points to The Father.
Elijah John wrote:
The Hebrew Scriptures already provide us with an all-sufficient Savior:
I, even I, am YHVH; and beside me there is no savior.
When read in context, this is a promise made to Israel. In it, YHVH claims to be Israel's savior, not the savior of the universal us you are claiming.
Tcg
A common misconception refuted by Isiah 45.22:
"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
That chapter includes these qualifications:
4- "For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
though you do not acknowledge me."
15 - "Truly you are a God who has been hiding himself,
the God and Savior of Israel."
17 - "But Israel will be saved by the Lord
with an everlasting salvation;
you will never be put to shame or disgraced,
to ages everlasting."
19 - "I have not spoken in secret,
from somewhere in a land of darkness;
I have not said to Jacob’s descendants,
‘Seek me in vain.’
I, the Lord, speak the truth;
I declare what is right."
Based on this context, it is clear that the promise is limited to Israel. It's not even questionable.
Tcg
I don't see how you get that from the passage you cite. YHVH only seems to be saying that He is Israel's God, but that message is not exclusionary. If it were, he would not implore "the ends of the earth" to turn to Him. Israel did not occupy the "ends of the earth".
The limitation is stated time and time again, it can't be ignored.
The "ends of the earth" is clear hyperbole, unless one expects dirt to worship God.
Besides, Jesus was no universal savior. He is the one who said he was sent only to "the lost sheep of Israel".
What is claimed about Jesus doesn't effect the clear claims about YHVH in Isaiah.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
No, not dirt. The other inhabitants of the earth. They were also invited to turn to YHVH and be saved. There are other passages that reflect this imperative as well. Why do you think the Hebrew nation was chosen? For a particular salvation, or to bring the message of YHVH's ethical monotheism to the world? Ancient and modern Jewish thinkers believe it's the later.
Early Gentile devotee's to the God of Israel were called "God Fearers" and are alluded to in the Psalms and elsewhere.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
As we have already seen in the context of Isaiah 43, it is a promise to restore Israelites that have scattered. The distance they have scattered is of course exaggerated to make the "God and Savior of Israel" seem even more powerful. Padding one's resume is nothing new.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
Jesus offers peace on earth to those who believe in him. Christians live their lives free from the laws of God. That is to say, the laws that don't make sense to them. You see, they have to understand abd agree with what God commands otherwise they wont do it.
Dont kill, dont steal, lie, commit adultry...they understand that.
Dont eat pig? That just doesnt make sense to them. It tastes good. Their religious holidays may look beautiful but they are ugly. Hows that Easter Ham? God provides so much food and they serve one that he specifically saud DI NOT EAT! A slap in the face to God
Ask a Jew why they don't eat pig. Because God said not to. Period.
Christians are attached to the physical world. They even put God in a physical body. They want God to be like them. They like earthly pleasures. They want to live forever . They should be careful what they want. Imagine never being able to die. That you are in the flesh forever. Reincarnated over and over. Being born again...all the years of school to do..raising children..working ... working.. working...then sickness and death...then repeat it...... Over and over.
Live forever? Theyll wish to die but death willl never come for them. They should read their own bible. It tells them that death will flee from them. A snake bite wont even harm them.
Elijah John wrote:
The Hebrew Scriptures already provide us with an all-sufficient Savior:
I, even I, am YHVH; and beside me there is no savior.
When read in context, this is a promise made to Israel. In it, YHVH claims to be Israel's savior, not the savior of the universal us you are claiming.
Tcg
I think this is a good point. However, if all are drawn to the God of Israel, and in that process enter into that same covenant, then there is no effective difference.
If this is true, then it guts many of the foundational claims of the New Testament, including these:
Luke 2:11 "For today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord."
Acts 13:23 “From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised."
Titus 2:13 "Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."
Ephesians 5:23 "For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body."
Philippians 3:20 "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;"
1 John 4:14 "We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."
I don't see your point. I don't see anything being gutted here.
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Can both YHVH and Jesus be the only savior needed?
Most definitely
Can neither be saviors and neither be needed?
Yep, and Paul points out why when he refers to those who are foreordained to be "vessels fitted for destruction". It's a foregone conclusion that the damned neither want or need a savior. They can't want what they have no knowledge or awareness of in the first place.
