What is the Biblical view of hell?

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otseng
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What is the Biblical view of hell?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

SallyF wrote: The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.
Divine Insight wrote: In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.
Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

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Post #111

Post by otseng »

onewithhim wrote: [Replying to post 92 by otseng]

I wonder why you just skipped over my posts. I would like to be included in the discussion. (Posts #82, 83, & 84.)
I responded to your post 82 here:
viewtopic.php?p=970290#970290

Just because I don't respond to all of your posts, doesn't mean I'm excluding you from the discussion. There are many of my posts that nobody has responded to.

But, I'll comment on your other posts.
onewithhim wrote: That is the point of the Lake of Fire AND "the fire that is prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41) SYMBOLIC for complete obliteration.
The "lake of fire" is only mentioned in Revelation. My own view is the entire book is to be interpreted symbolically, or at least most of it.
onewithhim wrote: The Lake of Fire is the same as the "fire prepared for the devil and his angels," and also Gehenna. They all refer to fire, which SYMBOLIZES the complete obliteration of the wicked. They will exist no more.
I think the ultimate question is how much of the verses about hell in the Bible are we to interpret literally or symbolically. Depending on this ratio, we'll all come to a different view of hell.

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Post #112

Post by Imprecise Interrupt »

John of Patmos incorporated into Revelation a great number of references to existing scriptures, not all of which would become canon. Was there any scripture that referred to the ‘second death’ and if so what did it mean?

The Targums were Aramaic translations of Jewish scriptures meant to be read aloud in conjunction with the Hebrew to Aramaic speaking Jews. The Targums were often not fully faithful to the Hebrew, expanding on ideas to clarify them or simply adding entirely new ideas. It is there that the phrase ‘second death’ appears and its meaning is very pertinent to Revelation 20.

Canonical Isaiah versus Targum Isaiah (See the link here


Isaiah 22:14 The Lord of hosts has revealed himself in my ears: “Surely this iniquity will not be atoned for you until you die,� says the Lord God of hosts.

Targum Isaiah 22:14 The prophet said, with mine ears I was hearing when this was decreed from before the Lord of hosts, namely, that this your iniquity shall not be forgiven you till you die the second death, said the Lord, the God, the God of hosts.

In the time of Isaiah, written probably around the 6th century BC, the idea of personal resurrection had not yet arisen. The focus was on national renewal. All the dead simply went to sleep in Sheol forever. If individual transgressions are to be punished, it must be in this life. The punishment for this iniquity will be ‘for the rest of your life’.

Targum Isaiah, dating from the 1st century BC, introduces this mysterious second death, suggesting a punishment after this life.


Isaiah 65:6 Behold, it is written before me: “I will not keep silent, but I will repay; I will indeed repay into their lap

Targum Isaiah 65:6 “I will recompense unto them the wages for their sins, and deliver their bodies to the second death�

Deliver their bodies? How does that fit?


Isaiah 66:24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.�

Targum Isaiah 66:24 “And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men, the sinners who have rebelled against my Word: for their souls shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched; and the wicked shall be judged in hell [Gehenna] till the righteous shall say concerning them, we have seen enough.

Now we see how ‘bodies’ fits in. It is the dead bodies of the rebels. But even in Isaiah there is a puzzling hint of everlasting punishment of the dead bodies?

Targum Isaiah makes this hint explicit. It is not the bodies, it says, that will be punished. The second death is the souls burning in the burning type of hell usually envisioned by that word. But another puzzling feature is the righteous saying they have seen enough. When they say that, does that mean they stop watching but the punishment goes on forever? Or does the punishment end when the righteous say there has been enough of that? It would be unusual for anyone but God making such a decision, so the implication seems to be eternal punishment of the souls of the wicked.


The use of the phrase ‘the second death’ by John of Patmos in relation to the fate of the unrighteous would seem to be eternal punishment and not annihilation.

Another work of the same era as the Targums borrows the language and ideas of Targum Isaiah concerning the fate of the wicked.

Judith 16:17 Woe to the nations that rise up against my kindred! the Lord Almighty will take vengeance of them in the day of judgment, in putting fire and worms in their flesh; and they shall feel them, and weep for ever.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/apo/jdt016.htm

The concept of conscious eternal punishment after death, including by fire, was definitely around.


Revelation already makes a reference to unending punishment by fire (and sulfur) before the ‘lake of fire’ passages.

Revelation 14
9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.�

Fire and sulfur keeps showing up and in interesting company.

Revelation 19
20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Revelation 20
10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Fire and sulfur, the lake of fire (that burns with sulfur), unending conscious punishment and the second death all get linked together. It certainly sounds like John of Patmos was talking about eternal fiery punishment for the unrighteous. Whether one wishes to say this is symbolic is another matter. But it is clear what image Revelation is portraying.

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Re: What is the Biblical view of hell?

Post #113

Post by onewithhim »

ttruscott wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: I have never come across anyone that believes humans (we) are "only dead bodies", but if there was anyone that started from such a bizzare and illogical starting point, then yes they may well come to such a ludicrous and laughable conclusion.

Have you ever met anyone that holds such a peculiar position?
I'm pretty sure I remember one of the JWs here, who I think was you, claiming that people have no spirits only bodies...there is no part of a human that continues to exist after a person dies...?

Am I wrong or are you playin me?
Just wanted to weigh in as another person who agrees with JehovahsWitness. The Bible doesn't teach that we have a spirit that leaves the body, like a conscious "other me." Nowhere is there any back-up for this erroneous teaching. When we understand that the spirit that is in us (and all living things) is merely THE LIFE FORCE from God that keeps us alive, we can read all references to the spirit leaving the body as the departure of the life force, the power of God, his Holy Spirit's activity on that person to have kept him alive. There is no evidence that this spirit is conscious and is an extension of a person, or, "the real person." This is absurd.

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Post #114

Post by onewithhim »

otseng wrote:
onewithhim wrote: [Replying to post 92 by otseng]

I wonder why you just skipped over my posts. I would like to be included in the discussion. (Posts #82, 83, & 84.)
I responded to your post 82 here:
viewtopic.php?p=970290#970290

Just because I don't respond to all of your posts, doesn't mean I'm excluding you from the discussion. There are many of my posts that nobody has responded to.

But, I'll comment on your other posts.
onewithhim wrote: That is the point of the Lake of Fire AND "the fire that is prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41) SYMBOLIC for complete obliteration.
The "lake of fire" is only mentioned in Revelation. My own view is the entire book is to be interpreted symbolically, or at least most of it.
onewithhim wrote: The Lake of Fire is the same as the "fire prepared for the devil and his angels," and also Gehenna. They all refer to fire, which SYMBOLIZES the complete obliteration of the wicked. They will exist no more.
I think the ultimate question is how much of the verses about hell in the Bible are we to interpret literally or symbolically. Depending on this ratio, we'll all come to a different view of hell.
The difference between all of what the KJV renders as "hell" has been discussed, and it is safe to say that it is CLEAR what these differences are. Why do you say that it isn't? Please tell me how my explanations and also those of JehovahsWitness and timothy fall on soggy ground.


P.S. You responded to my post #82 where I said that "Sheol" and "Hades/hell" are the exact same thing (and proved it with two identical Scriptures from both old and new Testaments), by saying that they were NOT the same thing, without giving any solid reason why.

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Post #115

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to post 110 by otseng]

The popular view of "Hell" must be understood, looked at from all angles and the truth determined.

After all, it portrays God as a sadistic beast, torturing people in an agonizing fire from which they can never hope to escape. It is downright blasphemy. God is NOT an ogre that delights in the pain of anyone.

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Post #116

Post by onewithhim »

Imprecise Interrupt wrote: John of Patmos incorporated into Revelation a great number of references to existing scriptures, not all of which would become canon. Was there any scripture that referred to the ‘second death’ and if so what did it mean?
The second death means the death from which no one wakes up. No resurrection, no more chances. It is for the incorrigibly evil people that will not be good.

I have seen references in other books, but I'll have to get back to you on that. I need to look them up.

A lot of what you posted has already been discussed on this thread. Please go back and take a minute to see what has already been commented on.

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Post #117

Post by William »

@111

onewithhim:That is the point of the Lake of Fire AND

Matthew: The fire that is prepared for the devil and his angels.

onewithhim: SYMBOLIC for complete obliteration.

otseng: The "lake of fire" is only mentioned in Revelation. My own view is the entire book is to be interpreted symbolically, or at least most of it.

William: Essentially whomever wrote Revelation was passing on their data of experience of the Metaphysical Realm.
Lakes themselves can be symbolic of the cleansing property of water and of fire.
Key word both share, is "Cleansing".


onewithhim: The Lake of Fire is the same as the "fire prepared for the devil and his angels," and also Gehenna. They all refer to fire, which SYMBOLIZES the complete obliteration of the wicked. They will exist no more.

otseng:I think the ultimate question is how much of the verses about hell in the Bible are we to interpret literally or symbolically. Depending on this ratio, we'll all come to a different view of hell.

William: That has already occurred over 2000 years since Jesus.
It isn't so much about interpretation as it is about judgmentalism. It is judgementalism which provokes differing interpretations.
Clearly the idea that the Metaphysical Realm will deal with the individual through how the individual chooses to judge, is poetic justice when all is said and done.

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Re: What is the Biblical view of hell?

Post #118

Post by William »

@113

onewithhim: Just wanted to weigh in as another person who agrees with JehovahsWitness. The Bible doesn't teach that we have a spirit that leaves the body, like a conscious "other me." Nowhere is there any back-up for this erroneous teaching. When we understand that the spirit that is in us (and all living things) is merely THE LIFE FORCE from God that keeps us alive, we can read all references to the spirit leaving the body as the departure of the life force, the power of God, his Holy Spirit's activity on that person to have kept him alive. There is no evidence that this spirit is conscious and is an extension of a person, or, "the real person." This is absurd.

William: Clearly one can ascertain that your position is one coming from judgment, which is no ones right to do, and is not in itself an act of loving, if Paul is correct.

Paul: Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.


William: I wrote of this in another post answering your concerns about the Doctrine of Death. You declined to continue with that discussion...nonetheless my words are pertinent.
@69

onewithhim: God told them they would die if they disobeyed. When they disobeyed they started to die, as God had warned them. He didn't have to say that their perfection was gone. It was obvious.

William: It might be important to understand that the containers (human bodies) were perfect but the spirit within it was then able to be imperfect through the perfect body.
Certainly the story does imply as much.


onewithhim: But we had no eternal spirit placed within us when we began to exist.

William: This is where it is important to be aware of who we are.
Your argument implies we are the container (human form.) and that no eternal spirit has entered the container that we are.
Clearly the container is empty and lifeless without the Eternal Entity indwelling it.


Elohim: Breathe in - breathe out

onewithhim: That was the big lie that Satan inflicted upon mankind. He said to Eve, "You certainly will not die!"

William: The Serpent knew things the Humans did not know of themselves.

onewithhim: God did not give us an eternal spirit that lives on after our body dies.

William: According to the story, GOD gave the human instrument (body) an eternal occupant (breath of GOD). The problem with that is it is easy for the Eternal occupant to think of itself as the human body.
If we all understood intimately that we were of GOD - as Jesus messaged - rather than merely a body which would die and be no more - as materialists believe - we would probably behave very differently.


onewithhim: Didn't you say so yourself that it doesn't make sense that a person who goes to hell-fire after his body dies would still be LIVING, and that would go against the pronouncement by God that the punishment for sin is DEATH?

William: No.
The only death that occurs is the death of biological instruments. Eternal entities cannot die.
What I say is that the eternal entity which has been influenced by its incarceration within human form and knows not that it is an eternal entity, but thinks itself as a finite being - thinks of itself as the experience the being has, rather than that which is having the experience - carries the total of its human experience into the Metaphysical Universe once the body it occupied and believed itself to be, dies.


onewithhim: Where in the Bible does it say that man has an "eternal entity" within himself?

William: As I explained, 'man' as you understand yourself, is self identifying with the flesh/form/body. We are to identify as Spirit, because that is really what we are.
We are all 'sons' of GOD...not the flesh devices used to experience physical reality.
Think of the human body like a space-suit. it enables the astronaut to explore space.
It is the same with the human instrument. The eternal entity you are, uses it to explore the physical universe...(experience a life as being human).


onewithhim: The spirit within man is simply the force from God that keeps that person alive.

William: Again, you conflate the flesh with the 'person'. The flesh is the container for the person to experience through.
I don't argue that humans generally self identify with/as being the container. My argument is how this is problematic in terms of human belief systems and the Metaphysical Universe.
Once the eternal entity (spirit) exits the human experience, it takes with it the image of said experience through the beliefs it created and these are projected into the Metaphysical Universe, and experienced as real.


onewithhim: God does so with his Holy Spirit. When the spirit leaves a person after they die, that is the LIFE-FORCE "returning" to God which had kept that person alive. It is the same life-force that operates on everything created. The same life-force that keeps animals alive, and plants. When they die, the spirit, in effect, leaves them.

William: In a sense what happens is that one 'hitches a ride' with the Holy Spirit who - for the most part - resides and works within the Metaphysical Universe.
Those who connect with the Holy Spirit enable this to be able to happen.
In effect it is the individual reassessing his/her/their self image, ascertaining that they are actually an eternal being which was placed into the environment of the Physical Universe.


Someone:The spirit returns to the true God who gave it

onewithhim: "Spirit" means the LIFE-FORCE that keeps humans (and animals and plants) alive.

William:The Spirit also gathers the Data of Experience of the individuate Forced Life. The Spirit is the recipent and owner of that data.
True, we are not really that data, even though we experienced being so.
Rather, we are The Spirit which without, the data would never have had the opportunity of being created.
Effectively, 'we' are that which created this Physical Universe, but at the time, we were God and Satan.
This because, we are informed that there was a battle in the Metaphysical Universe way before the Physical Universe was created in order to fight the same battle on a different board.


onewithhim: What are your thoughts on Ecclesiastes 3:19,20? I think that these verses bear out my explanation of "spirit."

Someone:"There is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit....All are going to the same place. They all come from dust, and they all are returning to dust."

William: From memory, the writer seemed depressed, like the spirit had up and left him...I prefer the writing of David...maybe it is time to have another read and see how I feel about it now...

I think if people want to adopt the same attitude as the writer, and believe the same - effectively that they are data rather than data collector, that is their prerogative.
Did the writer of Ecclesiastes mention anything about being risen from that death?


onewithhim:

William:

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Post #119

Post by William »

@115

onewithhim: The popular view of "Hell" must be understood, looked at from all angles and the truth determined.

William: Agreed.

onewithhim: After all, it portrays God as a sadistic beast, torturing people in an agonizing fire from which they can never hope to escape. It is downright blasphemy. God is NOT an ogre that delights in the pain of anyone.

William: Only if one thinks that GOD creates hell's for people to experience. Any who do will have to deal with that belief eventually.
If those who experience heavens and hells actually are judged by their own expectations, then that is hardly GODs doing. That is GODs allowing the individual eternal entities that right to their expectations of 'Justice' in what ever form it might manifest.

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Post #120

Post by JehovahsWitness »

DOES IT REALLY MATTER WHAT WE BELIEVE?

otseng wrote:

I believe one can still be a Christian (even an orthodox Christian) and hold to any view of hell. ...

So what would be the point in having an inquiry on the topic?
  • The fact is that anyone that has held their dying baby in their arms, has lost a loved one or has been told a family member or friend is in screaming agony never to find relief, asks and deserves a clear understandable answer to the question "What happens at death?" A God of love would know that this is one of the most fundamental of all human questions, and He has provided clear and easily understandable answers that doesnt amount to ... "Make up whatever you like and believe that..'cause I'm not tellin'!"

    While millions of nominal Christians will answer as you have above, leaving sincere seekers of truth, at the least unbearably frustrated and at the most open to exploitation (think of Catholic indulgences), fear and superstition, Jehovah's Witnesses bring spiritual relief to those thirsting for truth, not by listing dozens of scriptures and saying "You see how confusing the bible is, we might as well accept its not much help.... nobody can possibly know for sure" but by TEACHING them, with clear logical bible based reasoning. So does it really matter? Truth always matters. All bible truths are interlinked and one cannot serve God acceptably while believing lies.
    ROMANS 10:2

    I can assure you that they are deeply devoted to God; but their devotion is not based on true knowledge. - Good News Translation
Still thank you for gathering so many scriptural references (good work), and thank you for starting a thread that has enabled me and others to pool answers on this topic into one thread for easy access.



JW


FURTHER READING
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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