What is the Biblical view of hell?

[otseng]

The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.

In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.

Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

[Tcg]

The fact is that anyone that has held their dying baby in their arms, has lost a loved one or has been told a family member or friend is in screaming agony never to find relief, asks and deserves a clear understandable answer to the question "What happens at death?"

The fact that people in these situations desire to be comforted by knowing what happens after death, in no way provides evidence that they deserve to know what happens. The wish for that knowledge doesn't prove that such knowledge is available. It is equally true that the desire that no eternal life of fiery pain exists, doesn't answer the question of whether or not it does.



Tcg

[Imprecise Interrupt]

John of Patmos incorporated into Revelation a great number of references to existing scriptures, not all of which would become canon. Was there any scripture that referred to the ‘second death’ and if so what did it mean?

The second death means the death from which no one wakes up. No resurrection, no more chances. It is for the incorrigibly evil people that will not be good.

I have seen references in other books, but I'll have to get back to you on that. I need to look them up.

A lot of what you posted has already been discussed on this thread. Please go back and take a minute to see what has already been commented on.

I went through the entire thread before posting and again now to make sure I did not miss anything. I saw nothing at all about the phrase 'the second death' having been used in Targum Isaiah or anywhere else prior to Revelation. That was my main point, tying together all the indications of the fate of the unrighteous as being eternal conscious punishment by fire as indicated by John of Patmos by reference to that phrase. Of course I duplicated some quotes from Revelation. It was necessary to connect it all together.

If you have any evidence that there was another meaning to the phrase 'the second death' that was around in the 1st century, I would be glad to see it.

[otseng]

P.S. You responded to my post #82 where I said that "Sheol" and "Hades/hell" are the exact same thing (and proved it with two identical Scriptures from both old and new Testaments), by saying that they were NOT the same thing, without giving any solid reason why.

Here's what I said:

My point is hell in the OT (Sheol) is not the same as hell in the NT (Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus).

Yes, I can agree that Sheol is similar to Hades. But, Sheol is not similar to Gehenna or Tartarus.

The problem is the NT uses the same word "hell" for Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus. So, when I said Sheol is not the same as hell in the NT, I use the term in a collective sense of hell having all the attributes of Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus.

Conceptually, Sheol and Hades are similar since they both referred to the underworld where all would go to. However, Sheol is described differently than Gehenna and Tartarus.

Gehenna is described as a place where people could be cast into by God, soul and body is destroyed, and could be damned in. These qualities are not used for Sheol. So, Sheol would not be the same as Gehenna.

While we're on the subject of soul and body, here is a verse that indicates humans have two separate components: body and soul.

[Mat 10:28 KJV] 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

People can kill the body, but they cannot kill the soul. Only God can destry both the body and soul. So, this implies the soul lives after the body dies. (Additionally, this verse also implies the soul is not necessarily immortal.)

Tartarus is described as a place where angels that sinned are cast into. Sheol is not described this way, so that's why I say Sheol and Tartarus are not the same thing.

Now, if one assumes Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus, and Sheol are all symbolic terms for death, then one can say they are all the same thing. But, without making that assumption, and just looking at it by simply using what the Bible does describe them as, Sheol and Gehenna/Tartarus are portrayed differently.

[otseng]

After all, it portrays God as a sadistic beast, torturing people in an agonizing fire from which they can never hope to escape. It is downright blasphemy. God is NOT an ogre that delights in the pain of anyone.

Who said God is an ogre that delights in the pain of humans?
Who said anything about God torturing people?

Now, if you mean punishing, that's different. And as I mentioned, there's only one verse I've found that explicitly refers to everlasting punishment.

[Mat 25:44-46 KJV] 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Note Jesus did not explicitly say "sinners" would be punished forever. He said those that do not minister to the hungry, thirsty, strangers, naked, sick, and prisoners would go into everlasting punishment.

Unfortunately, many people preach this passage out of context. Preachers point to this passage and proclaim the unrepentant would suffer eternal punishment. So, you must believe if you want to escape hell. But, if you take the words of Jesus literally, one must act to escape everlasting punishment.

[otseng]

As I've gone through what the NT does say about hell, I've noted the things not said in the Bible about hell:

• Paul does not say anything about hell
• Jesus never threatened sinners about going to hell
• Does not say Satan is ruling over hell
• Does not say demons are torturing people in hell
• Does not say the punishment of sin is hell

[Imprecise Interrupt]

After all, it portrays God as a sadistic beast, torturing people in an agonizing fire from which they can never hope to escape. It is downright blasphemy. God is NOT an ogre that delights in the pain of anyone.

Who said God is an ogre that delights in the pain of humans?
Who said anything about God torturing people?

Now, if you mean punishing, that's different. And as I mentioned, there's only one verse I've found that explicitly refers to everlasting punishment.

[Mat 25:44-46 KJV] 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Note Jesus did not explicitly say "sinners" would be punished forever. He said those that do not minister to the hungry, thirsty, strangers, naked, sick, and prisoners would go into everlasting punishment.

Unfortunately, many people preach this passage out of context. Preachers point to this passage and proclaim the unrepentant would suffer eternal punishment. So, you must believe if you want to escape hell. But, if you take the words of Jesus literally, one must act to escape everlasting punishment.

An excellent point about the need to act. This can also be seen elsewhere in Matthew.

Matthew 19
16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?� 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.� 18 He said to him, “Which ones?� And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.�

The commandments are the action oriented ones from the Decalogue plus the ‘love your neighbor’ addition from Leviticus 19:18. We can see the Sheep and Goats story from Matthew 25 as an illustration of that last one.

We can also see in verse 17 that Jesus is minimizing his role in the matter. No requirement for faith, belief etc. to have eternal life. Just do the right thing.

[otseng]

I believe one can still be a Christian (even an orthodox Christian) and hold to any view of hell. ...

The fact is that anyone that has held their dying baby in their arms, has lost a loved one or has been told a family member or friend is in screaming agony never to find relief, asks and deserves a clear understandable answer to the question "What happens at death?" A God of love would know that this is one of the most fundamental of all human questions, and He has provided clear and easily understandable answers that doesnt amount to ... "Make up whatever you like and believe that..'cause I'm not tellin'!"

While millions of nominal Christians will answer as you have above, leaving sincere seekers of truth, at the least unbearably frustrated and at the most open to exploitation (think of Catholic indulgences), fear and superstition,

Instead of equating me with nominal Christians and misrepresenting what I said, it's better to address what I actually said.

I never said what happens at death is not important. As a matter of fact, a correct belief of the main tenets of Christianity would determine what happens at death. But, if one believes in a symbolic hell or a literal hell would not determine what happens at death.

People do need to correctly know how to gain eternal life. This is essential to Christianity. But, to have a correct knowledge of hell is non-essential.

So I ask you, is a correct understanding of hell required to have eternal life?

[William]

@125

otseng: As I've gone through what the NT does say about hell, I've noted the things not said in the Bible about hell:

Paul does not say anything about hell

William: That is borderline outrageous considering Paul had a lot to say about many things.
Interestingly, he did have his fair share of "other-worldly" experiences...makes one think Metaphysically...as in...where GOD's Kingdom is situated and what strange things go on therein...


otseng: Jesus never threatened sinners about going to hell

William: Did he threaten anyone about going to hell?
If anything he was heavily warning that hellishness existed and some end up there forever.
Maybe he exaggerated the 'forever' bit just to add necessary emphasis to the warning...that it would take someone nigh on forever to get them out of that self-created predicament...

otseng: Does not say Satan is ruling over hell

William: Satan is GOD's accuser according to Metaphysical Legend. Either GOD converts his accuser to be his defender, or GOD gets rid of his accuser some other way...maybe that is why hell was invented
Satan represents GODs self-doubt - because that is always where we see Satan written in conjunction with.

otseng: Does not say demons are torturing people in hell

William: Does it even say that demons are so powerful that the can pretend to be GOD? Outlandish!

otseng: Does not say the punishment of sin is hell

William: Apparently that was 'death' but that was before Jesus lived and died as a Human Being.
The Key to facing the uncertainty of what happens when one 'dies', is to make sure that one faces death without judgments because one may find they unwittingly attract those judgments back to their selves and create exactly what it is that they truly harbor within, and for some folk, that is a lot of ugly. Some are even looking forward to the hell they believe in. True that.

[JehovahsWitness]

But, to have a correct knowledge of hell is non-essential.... So I ask you, is a correct understanding of hell required to have eternal life?

Yes, I do believe understanding of hell is indeed absolutely required to have eternal life. How so?

JOHN 17:3

This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

To know God is to have an accurate knowledge of who he is, what he's done, what his purpose and standards are and to worship Him accordingly. Noone without this knowlege will have everlastjng life, the scripture is clear. Not knowing what God has ordained about life and death equates to not having an accurate knowledge of the true God. Indeed arguably, those that believe God is capable of allowing a place of eternal torture are proving they have no idea who he is at all!

The second condition to be met is to know God's Son. This means more than knowing his name, it means recognising Jesus' position and what he has done for mankind.

JOHN 3:16

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

One cannot recognise what one does not understand. If someone doesn't know what happens at death one doesn't know what the ransom sacrifice is, ergo they cannot exercise faith in the blood of Jesus. Jesus died to save us but not knowing what "to die" actually means equates to not having the essential information necessary to exercise faith in Jesus and be saved. Jesus said, "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.", if this is so, how are we to describe a person that doesn't know the truth*?

CONCLUSION knowing basic truths about God and His Son are essential if one is to gain everlasting life. God is patient and kind and will ensure every individual has the opportunity to learn and accept those truths. True Christians presently have the privilege of being God's fellow workers in the proclaiming bible truths including what happens at death and why it's important to know, in a world where the blind are leading to blind into the pit of utter confusion, disinformation and indifference.

*Truth: The body of truthful divine teachings




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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 948#843948

How long have Jehovah's Witnesses been exposing the lie of eternal torment in hellfire?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 424#872424

So-called support texts for "hellfire": Questions for critical thinkers?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 932#841932



FURTHER READING: The Lie That Made God Cruel
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... ruel-hell/[/quote]

Go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN, HELL and ... THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD

[JehovahsWitness]

Instead of equating me with nominal Christians and misrepresenting what I said, it's better to address what I actually said.

Firstly I did NOT misrepresent what you said, I only refered once to what you said and that was a direct quote. The rest of the post were my views on this topic and how I feel about nominal Christians (I didn't say you were a nominal Christian as I have no idea how you identify yourself). If you have something to say about my views, in my post about what *I* think about those nominal Christians that DO say knowing what happens at death is unimportant, feel free to respond. But look carefully at the post and you will see I never said you were one of them.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 546#970546



JW