What is the Biblical view of hell?

[otseng]

The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.

In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.

Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to William]

That is what I am saying. How can people be comforted by saying their loved one is in Heaven doing what we don't know, or they are wandering around the earth somewhere? That's what goes with the Doctrine of Death.

What the Bible says is that when a person dies he will be remembered by God and brought back to life. Johnny can go fishing with his dad again.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 169 by Imprecise Interrupt]

I don't agree. We can heretofore agree to disagree.

[onewithhim]

Jesus talks about hell more than he talks about heaven....

Would you be so kind as to provide evidence to support this statement?

I did, in the very paragraph from which you pulled that part of my quote... Matthew 10, 13 and 25, Mark 9, Luke 16, Revelation 21... He describes it vividly, as I said. Now, Jesus gave us several of what we call "Kingdom Parables," where He talks about its value, its worthiness of our desire, and that kind of thing, but virtually nothing describing what it will actually be like. it's actually very interesting to me how little Jesus himself says about heaven -- at least in its future aspects.

Just where does Jesus talk about "Hell" in Matthew 10, 13 and 25?

Luke 16 is an ALLEGORICAL scenario that Jesus set forth to emphasize the guilt of the Pharisees in not spiritually feeding the people. A depiction of a literal hell-fire is not his intention, any more than a person in Hell could actually speak to a person in Heaven, or any more than a single drop of water could help quench the pain of being in a literal burning fire. (Look up what "allegory" means.) We have talked about Hell and what it means. It is translated from the word "Hades" and means the GRAVE. There is nothing in Luke 16 that is literal, except the hypocritical position of the Pharisees.

In Mark Jesus mentions GEHENNA. That is not the same as Hades/Hell. Gehenna and Hell are two different things, even though the KJV and other versions have translated Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus all as "hell." That is not correct. Did you bother to read the discussion on these three things? It was covered quite thoroughly. You don't seem to understand the difference between them all.

So, knowing that "Gehenna" and "Tartarus" are definitly NOT HELL, how many times does Jesus mention "Hell"?

Jesus mentioned "Hell" THREE times. Matthew 11:23, Matthew 16:18, and Luke 16:23.

For the sake of interest, he mentioned "Gehenna" 8 times. (Matthew 5:22,29,30; Matt.10:28; Matt.18:9; Matt.23:15,33; Luke 12:5)


So, we see that Jesus mentioned Hell and Gehenna (translated as "hell" by KJV) around ELEVEN times altogether.

There's a lot in here to this point to refute, but I'll abstain.

What other subject did he mention MORE? THE KINGDOM....53 times.

Yes, I've already agreed multiple times that he mentioned the kingdom more than hell. This would not be news to you, if you'd really been digesting well what I've been saying.

Whoever told you that little morsel about hell being Jesus' most-visited conversation was lying to you.

Well, if that was what somebody had told me -- or what I had ever thought in the first place -- then what you say here would be true...

I wrote my post above quite awhile ago, before I read all your posts.

[PinSeeker]

I don't really understand what your point is about describing Heaven.

Just that He doesn't describe heaven. But He does describe hell at least to some extent. And for the record, I agree with you that his descriptions were not literal; the reality of hell is -- I think assuredly -- infinitely worse, but the descriptions make it very clear that hell is... hell.

Jesus didn't describe heaven to any extent because most people aren't going there!

This is your opinion. I think He didn't describe heaven because (in no certain order):

* people wouldn't be able to comprehend it (it's far better than anyone can imagine)

* the Garden of Eden and the lives of Adam and Eve prior to the Fall give us a glimpse into what heaven is like (as I said before)

* closely related to the first bullet item above, it's more effective to describe what people want to avoid (hell, by repenting and believing)

* it already is described elsewhere in Scripture, included in those passages you cite below from the Psalms, Isaiah, and Micah.

What IS described throughout the Bible are conditions ON EARTH that will be experienced during Jesus' Millennial Reign. It is here on Earth that we will live forever, not heaven.

Okay now this is interesting. Not the part on Jesus's Millennial Reign; there's a whole 'nother thread on that -- Jesus's Millennial Reign is now, since His ascension to heaven 40 days after His resurrection and until the time He returns. Yeah, I know, you disagree with that, but like I said, that's a whole 'nother thread. What's interesting about this part of your post is the part about it being here on Earth that we will live forever. I agree with that -- although not the "not heaven" part. When Jesus comes back, Earth and heaven will be one; He will unite heaven and the earth; this is the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21). God's glory will finally fully be restored everywhere, even here on this planet. And yes, there will be a physical life to be lived. We will be co-heirs of the Kingdom with Jesus.

Why should we be given any detail about Heaven? It is a realm of spirit persons, living in "unapproachable light," as Jesus is. (I Timothy 6:16)

There is some detail given of heaven, just not by Jesus. See above. And below.

The Earth will be like:

Psalm 37:11
Isaiah 11:6-9
Isaiah 35:1,5,6
Isaiah 65:21-25
Micah 4:4

Well, earth and heaven, when they are one -- the new heaven and new earth.

[otseng]

[Mat 10:28 KJV] 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

When the person dies, everything about him is remembered by God, and He will resurrect this person at a future date. The BODY is merely the physical body of the person, which CAN be killed and/or destroyed. The SOUL cannot be destroyed by other humans because God remembers this person, and all of his attributes. He, God, has the ability to bring that person back, and He can decline to bring a person back if He so chooses.

I don't understand here. Are you saying when a person dies, the soul is simply a memory of the complete physicial form of the person's body in the mind of God? If so, what does it mean that God would destroy the soul in hell? That God would no longer remember him and wipe him from his memory?

Isn't this exactly what I have been saying?

That's why I said:

"I think we can all agree Sheol is not similar to the New Testament concept of hell, whether you believe in the afterlife or not."

[RightReason]

[Replying to brianbbs67]

How many are familiar with the teaching that hell was extreme cold? I believe the RCC taught this in the dark ages.

This is not a teaching of the Catholic Church. Please stop. Dante wrote a piece of fiction. It contained interesting and reasonable theological speculation, but no Catholic is expected to accept Dante's version.

The false statements perpetuated about the Catholic Church on this forum are sad.

[otseng]

I'm wondering what you think the word "punishment" means. I have previously been surprised by others' ideas that it means some discomfort inflicted on a person who is alive.

There are four verses in the NT (KJV) that has punishment in it. Each one has a different Greek word for punishment.

[Mat 25:46 KJV] 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment (kolasis): but the righteous into life eternal.

kolasis means torment, correction, punishment, penalty
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 2851&t=KJV

kolasis is translated as torment in 1 John 4:18

[1Jo 4:18 KJV] 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment (kolasis). He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

[2Co 2:6 KJV] 6 Sufficient to such a man [is] this punishment (epitimia), which [was inflicted] of many.

epitimia means penalty, punishment
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 2009&t=KJV

[Heb 10:29 KJV] 29 Of how much sorer punishment (timōria), suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

timōria means vengeance, punishment, penalty
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 5098&t=KJV

"kolasis differs from timōria as that which is disciplinary and has reference to the him who suffers, while the latter is penal and has reference to the satisfaction of him who inflicts it."

[1Pe 2:14 KJV] 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment (ekdikēsis) of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

ekdikēsis means avenge, vengeance, vindication, retribution
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 1557&t=KJV

Punishment is the imposition of an undesirable or unpleasant outcome upon a group or individual, meted out by an authority - in contexts ranging from child discipline to criminal law - as a response and deterrent to a particular action or behaviour that is deemed undesirable or unacceptable.

Punishments differ in their degree of severity, and may include sanctions such as reprimands, deprivations of privileges or liberty, fines, incarcerations, ostracism, the infliction of pain, amputation and the death penalty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punishment

So, death can be a form of punishment.

Can torture by a form of punishment?

Perhaps so since it's a form of cruel and unusual punishment.

[otseng]

The false statements perpetuated about the Catholic Church on this forum are sad.

Can you post what is the position of the RCC on hell?

[onewithhim]

I don't really understand what your point is about describing Heaven.

Just that He doesn't describe heaven. But He does describe hell at least to some extent. And for the record, I agree with you that his descriptions were not literal; the reality of hell is -- I think assuredly -- infinitely worse, but the descriptions make it very clear that hell is... hell.

What does that mean? If you have been following the discussion at all you will have seen that "Hell" has been misrepresented by translators, particularly those that follow exclusively the King James Version. The references to FIRE were not describing "Hell." The word "hell" is translated from the Greek word "Hades," and Jesus spoke of it merely 3 times in the Scriptures, and none of those times did it refer to literal hell-fire. So what does your statement mean---"the descriptions make it very clear that hell is...hell"?

The reality of hell is that it is THE GRAVE. It doesn't hold any fire.

Where does Jesus describe "Hell"? Luke 16 doesn't hold up, because it is an ALLEGORY meant to reveal the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, not show any realities of "Hell." Where else does Jesus describe "Hell"?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 175 by PinSeeker]

I can't relate to your idea of somehow melding heaven and earth and I can't follow your comments on spirit persons vs. physical persons. What you say doesn't make sense to me. It's not clear at all.

Can we agree to disagree? It's the best avenue, as you don't explain your ideas clearly and you don't offer precise Scriptural back-up.