Peace to you,
(response to Pinseeker, post 291,
viewtopic.php?p=971277#971277)
I realize that you have dropped out of the discussion and that is totally fine - we can absolutely agree to disagree; we can also disagree and continue on in love - for Christ, and for one another!
I do think it is a bit unfair to suggest that others who continue the discussion are engaging in empty chatter. For many people, this is a matter of great importance, and the fear generated by this (erroneous) doctrine is very real. It also speaks erroneously about the nature and character of God, who is love.
So I am going to continue, in an attempt to expound the truth more accurately (Acts 18:26).
As an aside, if you want to be really correct about it, Jesus does not teach Scripture – at least directly speaking – to those who have lived since Pentecost (Acts 2). Teaching is actually the Holy Spirit’s role (1 Corinthians 2:10-16). But I digress.
Christ (whose name is not "Jesus" but rather Jaheshua, meaning JAH saves; savoir of JAH.) does not teach scripture per se (it is already written); but He can indeed open the scriptures TO us; just as He did for the apostles.
The anointing (of holy spirit) that we received from Christ (if indeed we have received it), does also teach us.
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.
If we have received that anointing, then we do not need men like Lewis or Calvin (or anyone else) to be teaching us.
Back to the discussion at hand, you want evidence. Well, this is not an exhaustive list, but should be more than sufficient:
- • Clearly, what we read in Matthew 25 and Luke 16 – directly from the mouth of our Lord – refutes the cessation of existence of the wicked. You surely will agree that we cannot hear and or understand Mark 9 or Isaiah 66 in ignorance of or isolation from Matthew 25 or Luke 16.
The parables in Matthew 25 are describing things that happen when Christ returns; no one is cast into the the lake of fire at this time. The people who are weeping and gnashing their teeth are not dead, but alive. They are weeping and gnashing their teeth in anger, jealousy, hatred (which is how weeping and gnashing of teeth is described as being from in other passages in the bible).
The wicked man sees it and is angry; he gnashes his teeth and melts away; the desire of the wicked will perish! Psalm 112:10
The wicked scheme against the righteous and gnash their teeth at them... Psalm 37:2
I have shared as I have received from my Lord about the sheep and the goats in a few places. One is here:
viewtopic.php?p=731804#731804. In the parable of the sheep and the goats, we can see that Christ separates the people of the nations who are alive when He returns, into the sheep and the goats. None of the sheep or the goats are Christians. But to the sheep (whom He calls righteous, see Paul's words at Romans 2:13-16), Christ says:
‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
The sheep do not understand and ask when they did these things for Him. He responds:
"Whatever you did for even a least one of these brothers of mine, you did for me."
For the goats it is the opposite, and He says to them:
‘Depart from me, you who are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'
That is the only verse I know of from Matthew 25 that mentions the lake of fire (and the lake of fire is not hell; it cannot be hell since hell is cast into the lake of fire, and so destroyed).
I can only share with you what I received from the spirit about that verse. In most (if not all) translations, there is a comma inserted between the words "cursed" and "into". The comma makes it appear as though the goats are immediately being cast into the lake of fire. But this is incorrect.
I received from the spirit that I should read the verse again (without the comma), and I did so. That of course changed the meaning, and brought this verse in line with everything else my Lord has taught me.
So although the goats are among those cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, they are not cast into that fire at this time (indeed the judgment has not even occurred at this time). They are simply sent away from Christ and into the
outer darkness (outside the Kingdom, yet still upon the earth), where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.
• We must also read Luke 23 in light of Matthew 25 (especially, as those on His left will be sent away rather than exterminated) and Luke 16. As Jesus is on the cross at Calvary, He says to the thief on His right, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.� He says nothing to the thief on His left, but His silence cannot be interpreted as “you will not exist anymore,� but rather, “you will be somewhere other than Paradise.�
As mentioned in my previous post, the man would still exist. We are in agreement on that point. But he could not be in the lake of fire, because the dead are not cast into the lake of fire until after Hades gives up the dead in it. That does not occur until the end of the thousand years, at the judgment.
• In Revelation 19, immediately after the coming of Christ, we read of the doom of the Beast and False Prophet (Satan)
Neither the beast nor the false prophet can be Satan. From Rev 20:10:
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.
– they were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. Then in Revelation 20, we again see the coming of Christ and His execution of the Judgment, and verse 10 specifically states that the Beast and False Prophet, having been thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, are tormented day and night forever and ever.
In 20:11-15, all whose names are not found in the book of life follow Satan and are thrown into the same lake of fire. Their punishment is exactly the same – the second death is consignment to hell, the final abode of the wicked –
It is not possible that the lake of fire is hell. Hades (hell) is emptied out and then Hades (hell) is cast also into the lake of fire - and so destroyed. Just as Death is destroyed. Just as the Beast and the false prophet are destroyed.
Hell cannot be the final abode of the wicked, because hell (hades) gives up the dead in it, and is itself destroyed in the lake of fire.
and by direct inference, they also are tormented day and night forever and ever (20:15).
This is not stated. Hell is also cast into the lake of fire. But how is hell (a place; not a person) being tormented?
So, we agree that Isaiah 66:24 and Mark 9:42-48 are eschatological pronouncements of God's judgment upon the wicked... but specifically regarding these two passages, the fire is not literal, but rather symbolic of God’s judgment, which is never-ending -- “not quenched� -- for the wicked.
If you believe the fire is the judgment, then it would last only until the judgment is carried out. For instance "Weed" is judged guilty and sentenced to death. That is the judgment of the Judge. "Weed" may weep and gnash his teeth. But that weeping and gnashing of teeth necessarily stops when the sentence (of death) is carried out.
Likewise, the worm… “their worm,� which signifies ownership… symbolizes their torment and resulting anguish, which also is never-ending -- “does not die.� And to have a torment/anguish that does not end, he or she must still have a conscious existence -- shown graphically by Jesus in Luke 16.
Luke 16 is an illustration. The lesson is not that the dead are conscious and suffering. We can know this from Christ, who specifically described the dead as being asleep; and again from Daniel, where the dead are sleeping, and from Ecclesiastes, where the dead know nothing.
You may still disagree with that, and probably do. That should be okay with both of us at this point; we should be able to agree to disagree. As such, we can maintain our fellowship and love for one another in Christ, and I resolve to do those things and urge you to do likewise.
Certainly we an agree to disagree; and maintain love for Christ, and for one another as well. Of course!
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
