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Replying to otseng]
Yes, but doesn’t this then logically show how/why we cannot simply rely on the Bible, indicating that couldn’t be what Jesus expected in the first place?
What else can we rely on? If you say the traditions, then on what is the traditions based on? Either it would be based on the Bible and/or divine revelation. But if divine revelation is not supported by the Bible, why should we trust their divine revelation?
What else can we rely on? What we have relied on from the beginning. Testimony/accounts/historical records of Jesus Christ and those who knew Him. Those people did not have the Bible to tell them who Jesus was. They heard about the parable of the Good Samaritan from Jesus Himself. And they passed down that story and everything else Jesus told them throughout the years long before these stories were actually compiled and given to future generations in the Bible. So, from the beginning we relied on Tradition. We have always relied on Christ’s Church to not only share with us what God wanted to reveal to us in Sacred Scripture, but for everything God wanted to reveal to us through His Church. His Church does not contradict Scripture nor does Scripture contradict His Church.
We should trust the Church for the same reason we trusted Jesus Christ when He walked the earth over 2000 years ago – as a matter of faith.
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This very thread and conversation demonstrate our primary effort should be in determining who has the right/authority to interpret the Bible. So, it really doesn’t simply come down to, “What does the Bible say?� because as we have proven, that can differ.
It depends on what is meant by "What does the Bible say?"
I've been very careful to quote exactly what the Bible says by copying verses. We should all be able to agree those verses is what the Bible says.
You would think. But as this thread demonstrates some ignore the basic plain text and claim it actually means X. It’s fascinating if you think about it. And what the Bible says does depend on whether one sees something as literal or figurative, where one might place a comma, which meaning a word assumes if there is a word that holds different meanings which is very common in any language, etc.
Now, to interpret what those verses mean is not necessarily what the Bible says, but what we think it says.
Yep. And every interpretation can come with certain assumptions, pre conceived notions, agenda, etc. All the more reason to know/understand Jesus certainly wouldn’t recommend any person picking up the Bible and declaring their take the right one. He set up one, Holy, Apostolic, and authoritative Church to prevent such a problematic approach.
We all have the authority to interpret the Bible.
No. No. No. We do not. We all should read the Bible and apply it to our lives so long as it does not contradict the Church’s teaching/interpretation. Nothing else makes sense.
Why in the world would you think John Smith, Charles Russell, George Fox, etc could just pick up the Bible, given to them by the Catholic Church, and proceed to say it means something different than what Christ’s Church says it means. Then why even accept/take the Bible from them in the first place? It is Christ’s Church who decided what was to comprise the Bible. You don’t get to say, “Thanks, I’ll take it from here.� That makes no sense. What makes even less sense is to say, “Well, yes, I accept that this passage means what the Church says it does, but I reject when the Church says this other passage means this. I think the Church got it right here, but not there.� Uummm . . . why accept any of it? That’s illogical.
Why would one believe George Fox got it right? Or Calvin? Why would we trust them? Who were they? This should bother people. Otherwise we end up finding a church that agrees with us. Is that how one is to know Truth? We find the church that sits the best with us? Don’t you want to know you are getting it right? Not just following the group that tells you what you want to hear?
But, I do not think we should then go further and say our interpretation is the only acceptable interpretation.
Well, I don’t either if it doesn’t come from Christ’s Church because if it doesn’t come from Christ’s Church you couldn’t possibly know if it is correct. On the other hand, Christ gave His promise that if we listen to His Church, it is equivalent to listening to Him.
He told Peter, “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I build my church�. “I give to you the keys to the kingdom� “Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven� “He who hears you, hears me� “He who rejects you, rejects me�. Now that’s authority! Christ did not say, if my church starts to teach something that you don’t like or disagree with, then by all means start a new church and teach what you think is right.
