What is the Biblical view of hell?

[otseng]

The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.

In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.

Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

[William]

@

otseng: The best that can be said for one's position is if it's Biblical. If all of scripture harmonizes with one's view, then one can say it's a Biblical position. But, as we have witnessed so far, interpretations depend on how much one takes passages literally or symbolically.


RightReason:Yes, but doesn’t this then logically show how/why we cannot simply rely on the Bible, indicating that couldn’t be what Jesus expected in the first place?

otseng: What else can we rely on? If you say the traditions, then on what is the traditions based on? Either it would be based on the Bible and/or divine revelation. But if divine revelation is not supported by the Bible, why should we trust their divine revelation?

William: It is an interesting puzzle!
There are key elements involved in unlocking it.
Symbolism holds the clues.
All very well for me to say, but what of it?

Jesus symbolizes the WORD.
The WORD symbolizes the TRUTH.

We have the advent of a magical being who said some pretty unusual things.

We have the story only in a book called The Bible. The BOOK symbolizes The STORY.

The STORY is the one about the magical being JESUS. A Mystery.

The My-Story has been injected within His STORY.

Because The BOOK exists as reference it is revered and because The BOOK is revered, it becomes confused with being the STORY, but JESUS is the STORY, whereas The BOOK is part of the overall STORY.

The Disciple followed after the story, not the book. Indeed, if it were not for that, then how was the book ever written.

Placing Primary Optimus in the idea that one connects with the story rather than with the book in which only a small aspect of the Story resides, one can liberate themselves just as the disciples were.

Our disadvantage compared with that of the writers of the book, is that we do not get to follow after the visible Jesus, but rather the invisible one.

Even so, we should not substitute that, for a book.

We connect with the one in who's Story we are now involved within.

Puzzle solved...@

[William]

@

Imprecise Interrupt: In any case it means that the amount of punishment would be determined by people, not God. The verse also assumes that God will say Yes. Assuming it means eternal punishment is simpler.

William: My question is "Why would that be a problem?"
Indeed, to me it seems fair and just. Why would I presume a GOD would think otherwise?
How can I even be sure that I did not place the GOD and the hell there myself, as a symbol of my own desires...and that I was the last one standing as everyone else had already figured that out?

All that would remain for me to do is apologist, shake hands and maybe hug the GOD, and then perhaps together hand in hand we can turn our backs on that foolishness and think of it no more.

[Imprecise Interrupt]

@

Imprecise Interrupt: In any case it means that the amount of punishment would be determined by people, not God. The verse also assumes that God will say Yes. Assuming it means eternal punishment is simpler.

William: My question is "Why would that be a problem?"
Indeed, to me it seems fair and just. Why would I presume a GOD would think otherwise?
How can I even be sure that I did not place the GOD and the hell there myself, as a symbol of my own desires...and that I was the last one standing as everyone else had already figured that out?

All that would remain for me to do is apologist, shake hands and maybe hug the GOD, and then perhaps together hand in hand we can turn our backs on that foolishness and think of it no more.

Wait ... what?

[William]

Imprecise Interrupt: In any case it means that the amount of punishment would be determined by people, not God. The verse also assumes that God will say Yes. Assuming it means eternal punishment is simpler.

William: My question is "Why would that be a problem?"
Indeed, to me it seems fair and just. Why would I presume a GOD would think otherwise?
How can I even be sure that I did not place the GOD and the hell there myself, as a symbol of my own desires...and that I was the last one standing as everyone else had already figured that out?

All that would remain for me to do is apologist, shake hands and maybe hug the GOD, and then perhaps together hand in hand we can turn our backs on that foolishness and think of it no more.

Imprecise Interrupt: Wait ... what?

William: There is evidence in the form of personal testimony brought back to us from those whom experience the Metaphysical Universe.
Some of that evidence points to a process known as "Soul Retrieval" - in that, aspects of the fragmented Universe of Wholeness find themselves embedded into extremely unpleasant situations that they created for themselves (hells) and whats more, they do not understand that they have done this to themselves...
Others sometimes find opportunity to converse with these tormented ones, in the hope of getting them to undo what they have done, but the task is difficult to achieve for both parties.

The ones who stop watching are they who stop participating - those who have learned to change their creation through their beliefs/thoughts/actions they create their own way out of their bad situation.

Ironically these are also the ones who are the righteous and say there has been "enough of that" and "So Be It".

"GOD" is always where the action is...whatever that action is...

As well as this, Soul Retrievers are made up also of those who have left the bad situation behind and wish to give some of their time to helping others who are still caught is those bad situations...

[Imprecise Interrupt]

Imprecise Interrupt: In any case it means that the amount of punishment would be determined by people, not God. The verse also assumes that God will say Yes. Assuming it means eternal punishment is simpler.

William: My question is "Why would that be a problem?"
Indeed, to me it seems fair and just. Why would I presume a GOD would think otherwise?
How can I even be sure that I did not place the GOD and the hell there myself, as a symbol of my own desires...and that I was the last one standing as everyone else had already figured that out?

All that would remain for me to do is apologist, shake hands and maybe hug the GOD, and then perhaps together hand in hand we can turn our backs on that foolishness and think of it no more.

Imprecise Interrupt: Wait ... what?

William: There is evidence in the form of personal testimony brought back to us from those whom experience the Metaphysical Universe.
Some of that evidence points to a process known as "Soul Retrieval" - in that, aspects of the fragmented Universe of Wholeness find themselves embedded into extremely unpleasant situations that they created for themselves (hells) and whats more, they do not understand that they have done this to themselves...
Others sometimes find opportunity to converse with these tormented ones, in the hope of getting them to undo what they have done, but the task is difficult to achieve for both parties.

The ones who stop watching are they who stop participating - those who have learned to change their creation through their beliefs/thoughts/actions they create their own way out of their bad situation.

Ironically these are also the ones who are the righteous and say there has been "enough of that" and "So Be It".

"GOD" is always where the action is...whatever that action is...

As well as this, Soul Retrievers are made up also of those who have left the bad situation behind and wish to give some of their time to helping others who are still caught is those bad situations...

I believe I will stick to discussing the Biblical view of hell in this Topic. I can do Metaphysics as well but not here. I cannot say what I would want to say.

[marco]

We should trust the Church for the same reason we trusted Jesus Christ when He walked the earth over 2000 years ago – as a matter of faith.

And people DO trust their churches. That is why we are arguing. It seems obvious that Christ was talking about pain and punishment, but over the centuries wise men have extracted nectar from threat, fire and brimstone.

I learned in my religious lessons what hell was, in more ways than one.

Why would one believe George Fox got it right? Or Calvin?

I don't believe they got it right any more than did Henry viii when he destroyed the monasteries, thereby acquiring valuable real estate. However, when people like Savonarola attacked the bad habits of the church they did get some things right. Luther may had been rather coarse, but he wasn't completely wrong in attacking the sale of indulgences. I think our Holy Mother has to admit, sometimes, "peccavi" but I accept that God can act through imperfect vessels.


The problem we have here, ironically, isn't ignorance or heresy: it is sincerity. We can hang murderers but saints are something else. It is so hard to debate with people who are basically good. Sincerity has its own eloquence. Sometimes I feel, in my apostasy, like Attila being confronted by Pope Leo, and trembling at the vision of God. But I think that is just my boyhood superstition teasing me.

Hell, for me, and Jesus, is the opposite of the "many-mansioned place" even if we cannot quite agree on its etymology.

He told Peter, “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I build my church�.

Alas, this iron declaration can also be read in many ways, though of the many candidates for claiming truth I do think the Church best. I like the pun on Peter's name but in my scepticism I ask whether the Lord ever said such a thing. But if he did Francis has an important role today.

If only to quote was to speak truth.

[PinSeeker]

This passage does raise a problem.

Philippians 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Paul often refers to the dead as ‘asleep’, so obviously they would not do any knee bending at the present time.

Literal bending of the knee is not what is in view here, but rather honoring Jesus as God the Son. All will do this in one way or another even after experiencing the first death, physical death:

• The living, both in this life and spiritually alive to God, or after it either as an immaterial soul without their physical body before Jesus's return and the resurrection and ensuing Judgment or as body and soul reunited after the resurrection and subsequently the new heaven and new earth
  
  The dead, both in this life and dead in sin, or after it either as an immaterial soul without their physical body before Jesus's return and the resurrection and ensuing Judgment (Ecclesiastes 12:7 in speaking of all people tells us that the spirit returns to God upon physical death), and as body and soul reunited after the resurrection and subsequent second death.

Honoring Him will be done by acknowledging Him as Lord in word (the tongue will confess; spirits can talk) and in deed. Paul is referring directly to the words of the prophet Isaiah here, specifically Isaiah 45:23.

Paul makes little mention of the fate of the unrighteous. This is the only reference I can find and it is very unclear: Romans 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil

Paul was a preacher of the Gospel to the Gentiles. Preaching about the fate of the unrighteous was not his calling.

Perhaps it should be considered poetic instead, referring to the ‘three worlds’ imagery of mythology (also used in the scriptures), and simply emphasizing just how exalted Jesus really is.

No, it's literal, it's just not wooden. The bending of the knee is a metaphor for showing and giving honor.

In short, IMO Philippians 2 is not really relevant to the Topic under discussion.

Oh, but it is.

[William]

Imprecise Interrupt: I believe I will stick to discussing the Biblical view of hell in this Topic. I can do Metaphysics as well but not here. I cannot say what I would want to say.

William: As you wish.
It is to be observed that 'the bible' is heavily into Metaphysics as well as "Hell" being in the Metaphysical Universe.

Just Sayin'...in case one thinks one can have one without the other, and still be arguing relevantly.

[otseng]

Spirit in Greek is pneuma.

It is translated as Spirit (111x), Holy Ghost (89x), Spirit (of God) (13x), Spirit (of the Lord) (5x), (My) Spirit (3x), Spirit (of truth) (3x), Spirit (of Christ) (2x), human (spirit) (49x), (evil) spirit (47x), spirit (general) (26x), spirit (8x), (Jesus' own) spirit (6x), (Jesus' own) ghost (2x).

Definitions of pneuma:

1. the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
- sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the "Holy" Spirit)
- sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")
- never referred to as a depersonalised force
2. the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
- the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
- the soul
3. a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
- a life giving spirit
- a human soul that has left the body
- a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
- used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
- the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4. the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
- the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5. a movement of air (a gentle blast)
- of the wind, hence the wind itself
- breath of nostrils or mouth

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 4151&t=KJV

1. air
2. wind
3. breath
4. (phonology) breathing
5. life
6. spirit, soul
7. spiritual being: spirit, angel
8. inspiration (often divine inspiration), genius

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%C ... E%BC%CE%B1

[polonius]

Why would an infinitely perfect God who loves all of us, damn a person who commits sin to an eternity of suffering?

Or is this something men thought up?