Civil Debates on Christianity and Religions

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:40 am
The Ethics of Life

Like this post (1): Aetixintro
“Ethics, too, are nothing but reverence for life. This is what gives me the fundamental principle of morality, namely, that good consists in maintaining, promoting, and enhancing life, and that destroying, injuring, and limiting life are evil.” – Albert Schweitzer, “Civilization and Ethics”, 1949.

I totally agree with the above. It makes me so sad that we live in an evil world where the evil ones (carnivores and omnivores) prosper and the innocent ones (herbivores and autotrophs) perish. Although, some would argue that even herbivores are evil as they consume plants. Plants are not sentient but they are alive. Although, consuming fruits does not harm the plants as fruits are grown by the plants for consumption by birds and animals. I tried being a fruitarian but it was impossible to get all the nutrients from fruits alone so I became a vegan. I am so sad that an estimated 79% of the humans currently alive are omnivores, 20% are vegetarians and only 1% are vegans. We should all be pacifist vegans and live ethically. How can we persuade everyone to become a pacifist vegan?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:24 pm
Re: The Ethics of Life

Like this post (1): Overcomer
Compassionist wrote:

We should all be pacifist vegans and live ethically.

There are several problems with this. To begin with it's clearly nothing more than a personal opinion. You have no way of demonstrating eating animals is unethical. It's only unethical based on your own personal ideals of what you believe ethics should be.

There are both religious and secular objections that can be raised in opposition to your opinion on ethics.

The religious objections should be obvious. If one believes in a creator God, then it was God who designed animals to prey upon one another. Therefore if it's within the ethics of "God" then who are we as mere humans to object to God's sense of ethics and morality?

Also, many religious figures were themselves not vegans. Look at the Christian Christ, he was helping men to fish. So he was definitely giving his thumbs-up to eating fish. There is no indication in the Christian Gospels that Jesus was a vegan or preached veganism in any way.

So there's no reason for a religious person (at least not a Christian) to embrace your idea of what you believe to be ethical when it doesn't match up with what they believe are the ethical standards of their God.

From a purely secular perspective, secularists could argue (not saying that they all will argue this), but they could argue that competition and animals eating animals is clearly natural, and that we evolved from a species that was indeed at least omnivorous. Some will even argue that biologically our bodies actually need the nutrients contained in meat products. I've heard such arguments being made.

So what you end up with is asking everyone to simply embrace your ideals of what you personally think ethics should be. And to try to argue for that conclusion in any absolute way will indeed place you in debates with the people mentioned above.

Compassionist wrote:

How can we persuade everyone to become a pacifist vegan?

On a practical note, companies and farmers who are in the business of producing meat products are not only going to object to your plan, but they too will argue against your ideals of ethics. After all, unless they want to confess to being unethical people they have no choice but to argue against your ideals for ethics. They will argue that animals and humans have been eating meat from the dawn of time. No point in trying to make ethical objections to such a natural state of affairs now.

What about me? Could I be persuaded to become a vegan?

Yes, I could. However, I'm currently not a vegan and one of the main reasons I'm not is because it actually takes quite a bit of effort to try to find good vegan foods. Especially at the same prices that I can buy meat-related products for.

So the bottom line for me is that until you can convince food suppliers to start supplying easy vegan food products at reasonable prices, I'm not likely to become a vegan.

If all I could get at the story were vegan food products, then I would quickly become a vegan whether I wanted to or not.

So that's the key. If you want the world to become vegan you've got to change the food suppliers. And all I can say is good luck with that. As I pointed out above, the producers and marketers of meat products are not about to agree with your ideology when it comes to ethics. They'll simply argue that you are an ethical extremist and continue to produce and sell their meat products.

They will most likely even claim that you are living in a fantasy world, not the real world. They have to do this to protect their own ideology on ethics. They can't allow that what they are doing is unethical. That would be the same as declaring that they are unethical people.

So you've got your work cut out for you to be sure.

Turn the grocery stores into Vegan Stores and everyone will become a vegan.

As it is now my grocery store has extremely limited vegan products. And the vegan products they do have are EXPENSIVE. And that shouldn't even be the case. Supposedly vegetable based meals should be less expensive than meat. But strangely that's not the case.

Vegan meals are considered to be a higher-priced luxury for people who want to eat vegan. So that's probably a good place to start. Try to get at least some companies providing vegan meals at low cost. That would certainly help.

You need to have an impact on the producers and vendors. Trying to appeal to the consumers to just become vegans on their own isn't likely to be very effective on a practical level.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:35 pm
Re: The Ethics of Life

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[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to my post. I appreciate your time and efforts. I am a pacifist vegan because I value all sentient life and want to prevent the suffering and the death of sentient organisms. Being a vegan is better for the long-term health of humans, it is better for the animals and it is better for the environment. Please see the Dominion documentary and read the 9 reasons why veganism can save the world article and Every argument against veganism addressed.

I don't know anything about what is available in the shops where you live. Eating a vegan diet is actually cheaper where I live (United Kingdom). I buy fruits and vegetables and grains and cook my own food. It is more expensive to eat in vegan restaurants but I rarely eat out so it doesn't affect me. I agree that veganism is bad for the business of factory farmers and slaughterhouse owners but they could grow fruits and vegetables and grains instead which would be better for the environment.

I am not convinced there is a loving God. A loving God would not have made such a world where suffering and death are guaranteed. It's possible there is an evil God. It's also possible that God is imaginary. I am agnostic about the existence and nature of Gods.

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