Does God's absolute predestination make God unfair?

[shnarkle]

The claim is that God cannot be righteous and sovereign. He must be one or the other. He cannot predestine people to destruction and be just at the same time.

If God fits vessels for destruction, isn't it clear that he has a purpose for them? If not, then does God make vessels for no purpose, or perhaps simply random purpose?

When Paul says, "Who are you to reply against God?" he is effectively pointing out that some questions shouldn't be asked in the first place.

How do you reconcile the truth of the bible to your own logic? How do you reconcile man's moral responsibility to God's predestination of all events? If God is omnipotent, how can he be fair for judging men for their sins?

[Avoice]

There is no predestination.

I'll let God speak:

Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE. The son SHALL NOT BEAR the iniquity of the father, NEITHER shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. BUT if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live,. HE SHALL NOT DIE
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they SHALL NOT be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. HAVE I ANY PLEASURE AT ALL THAT THE WICKED SHOULD DIE ? saith the Lord God: and not that he should RETURN from his ways, and live?

The above is credited to God speaking it.
Not "a voice" from heaven

This tells us a few things.
First, it shows there is no predestination. "Is it my desire that the wicked should die?"

Sacrificing a human isn't how to save your soul
Being saved isnt about faith in Jesus
You must "DO"
Do what God says and stop doing things he said not to do. Why is this so difficult for people.

If people want to save their soul here is the instructions. Nothing about believing in Jesus.

Theres one thing false religions tend to have in common. They MUST believe in their leader or they are told they will perish.
Got news for you:. No where in the Hebrew scriptures does God tell us we must believe in him. It's not required. If it was he would have told us. God doesn't need people to believe he exists But we do have to do what he says. It's not about belief in him. Believing in him means nothing. Why even Satan believes in God.

Believe in God (Jesus) and be saved. If not you will die?
Aaaah the threat of an eternal lake of fire has people scared to death. What an angle!!

The Christian religion is based on acknowledging that God exists. They confess to knowing he exists but what he tells them means nothing. They don't take him seriously when he says don't do this or that. They think believing that he exists is all it requires to save their soul. J

Come on now...you who are Christian can read. You are on this website so I assume you can read what God says here. Why don't you believe God? You want to save your soul? He is telling you how. Believing IN God means nothing. It's the "believing" him that is necessary. Believing every word he says.

For some reason christians don't trust him past the grave..
The irony of it all. Everything they see, touch, hear, smell
..everything has come from God. Jesus on the other hand has given mankind nothing. Nothing. They have to wait to die for him to help them.

So Gods given them everything. Even their very lives. And who do they trust and worship? The one who has given them nothing. Nothing but eloquent speeches.
Yet it's jesus they trust. They've given him everything. Even God's glory

Either God speaks the truth or he's lying.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 2 by Avoice]

You haven't grasped Paul's argument. He is simply pointing out that God is omniscient, and therefore he knows what everyone is going to do before they actually do it. Does that make sense?

Is God not omniscient? Do you believe that God has no clue what anyone is going to do before they do it? If so, then you're admitting that the god you believe in is ignorant just like everyone else in this world. If not, then you have to look at Paul's argument because Paul is simply pointing out a logical fact which is that what is foreknown must be predestined. It if isn't predetermined, then it could change which would then negate God's foreknowledge. See how that works? It's just simple logic.

Furthermore, Paul is in no way denying free will. He goes to great lengths to point out that these are not mutually exclusive propositions. Can you fly to the moon? Can you just will yourself to fly to the moon? I think we would both agree that we can't, but does this mean we no longer have free will? Of course not. This is essentially Paul's argument. He is pointing out that it is only by revelation from God that one can make the choice in the first place.

God reveals the truth to you which is that you can keep his commandments. You now have the choice and ability to carry that out. This is not the case with those who have not had that revealed to them. You can point this out till you're blue in the face, but until God sees fit to reveal it to them, they will continue to believe in Jesus rather than what he points out which is that with God it is not only possible, but "easy".

[ttruscott]

How do you reconcile the truth of the bible to your own logic? How do you reconcile man's moral responsibility to God's predestination of all events? If God is omnipotent, how can he be fair for judging men for their sins?

Nothing short about my answer, sigh...

For me, I cannot accept that HIS love and righteous justice can be reconciled with HIS omniscience as we inherited it from the pagans. Orthodoxy claims HE knew before they were created who would end in hell BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY. This is unconscionable, against much scripture and a blasphemy ie, it destroys HIS GOOD NAME. And so does the doctrine of our inheriting sin from Adam by which GOD creates us to be evil and then punishes us for that evil, another denigrating blasphemy.


I have decided that GOD's glory is only perfectly upheld if certain premises are true;
- a person can only be guilty of a sin chosen by their free will
- anyone who can be saved will be saved
- those who are not saved cannot be saved
The only theology I have found that accepts these premises as doctrine is the theology of our existence as spirits before the creation of the physical universe called Pre-Conception Existence theology.

The foundation of the theology is that:
1. Everyone created in HIS image was created at the same time before the creation of the physical universe with a free will and the equal ability and opportunity to CHOOSE to become holy in HIS sight OR to choose to reject HIM and HIS promises and become eternally evil in HIS sight.

2. HE promised that everyone who out their faith, that is, their unproven hope, in HIM to be telling us the truth would be elected, chosen, to be HIS bride in heaven with HIM and all other holy ones after being saved from all our sinful choices by the salvation found in HIS Son. Those who rejected HIS claims because they thought HE was lying to us would make themselves eternally evil and as eternally unable to fulfill HIS purpose in the heavenly marriage, would be passed over for election and condemned to be banished from HIS created reality to the outer darkness for eternity.

3. Thus by our own free will according to our most deep hope everyone chose their own FATE in heaven or scorning heaven by putting our faith in HIM as our GOD and in HIS Son as our saviour, OR putting our faith in the idea that HE was a false god and a liar and as the first liar, the most evil persons in creation.

4. Then when some of HIS elect became evil in HIS sight by choosing to rebel against HIS call for the judgement of the Satanic HE
- created the physical universe which we all saw Job 38:7 and which puts an end to all our speculation about HIS claims to be divine with full power and glory, Rom 1:20,

- and arranged for all sinners and only sinners to be sent to the prison planet Earth to sequester us from the polite society of heaven until HIS sinful elect could be redeemed and sanctified and made heaven ready as HE promised by HIS election of them. Then they would be safe from the effects of the judgement, the eternally evil ones could be banished and the heavenly marriage would start.

It is a corollary to life on earth that our LIVES are predetermined, in accord with our free will pre-earth choices, to bring HIS sinful elect to redemption and sanctification perfectly, all things working to their good in becoming heaven ready.

Thus our FATES are self chosen while our LIVES are predetermined in detail and predestined to end in accord with our free will decisions made before our life on earth. Hard to improve on that...

Those who can hold their skepticism in abeyance long enough to understand how this is all expressed in the scriptures as a possibility are usually amazed at just how much support for the theology can be found in the Bible.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 4 by ttruscott]

I agree that many of your posts are quite compelling. They have to be read without any preconceived ideas about what the texts state, which is difficult to do. Your ability to support your position is excellent which makes it much easier to comprehend what you're saying.

The issues I am wrestling with are nonetheless just as formable and daunting as before. I don't see how anyone in an enlightened state could opt to reject the truth. This is also the case with revelation. We can't choose to follow Christ until the father draws or drags us to him. We have to be able to see the truth to follow it, and we can't choose it when we can't see it as an option. This doesn't mean we don't have free will.

We have a free will that doesn't have the kingdom as an option to choose until it is revealed.

The carnal mind instinctively fears the gospel message because it explicitly points out the necessity for self sacrifice, and this is nothing other than the sacrifice of the carnal mind itself. No wonder it recoils in horror.

We see hints of the kingdom all around us though, and even they may be intimidating at first, but then they become interesting, intriguing, until we become motivated to seek it out, ultimately at the expense of our own lives which we discard like useless garbage.

With me it comes in fits and starts like a small child running up to the edge of the surf at the beach only to sprint back up to the dry sand as the waves come surging in. Eventually they overcome us and we're swept out in the undertow

[PinSeeker]

How do you reconcile the truth of the bible to your own logic? How do you reconcile man's moral responsibility to God's predestination of all events?

God is the Creator, and we are the creature. Regarding salvation, our wills are in the context of His will. Not one speck of His creation is a "free agent" with regard to His salvation; salvation -- the whole, its entirety, and it's completeness from beginning to end, is of the Lord. The issue is not really whether we have a free will or not (we do), but whether we have complete autonomy or not (we don't).

I think we can safely say we can choose freely whether we want a red car or a blue car, whether we want a hamburger tonight or pizza or seafood, whether we think blondes or brunettes or redheads are better-looking, whether we prefer alternative rock music or country or jazz, whether our political inclinations are liberal or conservative, or whether we root for the Dallas Cowboys, San Francisco 49ers, or Miami Dolphins. Or... anything like those examples. None of those things are spiritually discerned. Decisions about cars, physical attractions, music choices, political inclinations, football team preferences, and those things are inconsequential, spiritually speaking..

The truth of the Gospel, however -- and thus the reality of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit -- is spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14). So therefore we can not know the things of God and accept them as truth unless we have been given the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 10-13), and no man can have the Spirit of God unless God gives the Spirit to Him ("The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" John 3:8). If we have been given the Spirit, then we will not fail to come to believe the Gospel and acknowledge and proclaim the reality of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit -- maybe not completely all at once, but in the fullness of God's time.

If God is omnipotent, how can he be fair for judging men for their sins?

As Creator, He alone sets the standard, and He alone can execute justice. And He does so according to His own glory, rather than the "glory" of man.

[marco]

How do you reconcile the truth of the bible to your own logic? How do you reconcile man's moral responsibility to God's predestination of all events? If God is omnipotent, how can he be fair for judging men for their sins?

Much discussion on God has to do with the assumptions we put into words we relate to God. We assume something called omniscience and assume this means knowing events that as yet do not exist. We have no idea in what way God is related to time.


The biblical God is a being, not a concept; a being who walks and talks and climbs mountains, but does things like flying in the air. In many ways he is aa silly amalgam of primitive ideas.


When Paul talks about God, he talks in awe about a being who presumably, for Paul, inhabits some Olympus in the sky. This God requires total obedience, and Paul believes we have no right whatsoever to question anything thrown at us.

Human logic works for things that move in accordance with the scientific laws we know, and those we as yet do not know. Attempting to confine God to terms of human logic is flawed. If we need him to confound our logic, he does. Therefore coming up with word problems that seem to demand we choose between absurdities is a necessary consequence of humans imposing human rules into the sphere of God, whatever that might be.

Predestination is man's description of how he sees God working with past and future.

[onewithhim]

The claim is that God cannot be righteous and sovereign. He must be one or the other. He cannot predestine people to destruction and be just at the same time.

If God fits vessels for destruction, isn't it clear that he has a purpose for them? If not, then does God make vessels for no purpose, or perhaps simply random purpose?

When Paul says, "Who are you to reply against God?" he is effectively pointing out that some questions shouldn't be asked in the first place.

How do you reconcile the truth of the bible to your own logic? How do you reconcile man's moral responsibility to God's predestination of all events? If God is omnipotent, how can he be fair for judging men for their sins?

God does not predestine anyone to a particular fate. If that were so, we wouldn't even have the word "responsibility."

I'll do some more research on the "vessels fit for destruction" thing, but I'm positive it doesn't mean that God creates certain people to die. Why would he do such a thing? Pure sadism would be the only reason. We can see by what most of the Bible says that he is not sadistic. He has created neither a fiery hell nor people who have no choice in what they do.

If people were predestined, why would God say:

"...I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must CHOOSE life so that you may live." (Deuteronomy 30:19) ?


Any student of the Bible can see that God does not engineer "all events." He has given Satan temporary control of the world, and waits for mankind to show how far they can make the earth a peaceful place before He takes the government back. (I John 5:19) Do you think that mankind's time to show what they can do without God is just about up?

[onewithhim]

There is no predestination.

I'll let God speak:

Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE. The son SHALL NOT BEAR the iniquity of the father, NEITHER shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. BUT if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live,. HE SHALL NOT DIE
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they SHALL NOT be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. HAVE I ANY PLEASURE AT ALL THAT THE WICKED SHOULD DIE ? saith the Lord God: and not that he should RETURN from his ways, and live?

The above is credited to God speaking it.
Not "a voice" from heaven

This tells us a few things.
First, it shows there is no predestination. "Is it my desire that the wicked should die?"

Sacrificing a human isn't how to save your soul
Being saved isnt about faith in Jesus
You must "DO"
Do what God says and stop doing things he said not to do. Why is this so difficult for people.

If people want to save their soul here is the instructions. Nothing about believing in Jesus.

Theres one thing false religions tend to have in common. They MUST believe in their leader or they are told they will perish.
Got news for you:. No where in the Hebrew scriptures does God tell us we must believe in him. It's not required. If it was he would have told us. God doesn't need people to believe he exists But we do have to do what he says. It's not about belief in him. Believing in him means nothing. Why even Satan believes in God.

Believe in God (Jesus) and be saved. If not you will die?
Aaaah the threat of an eternal lake of fire has people scared to death. What an angle!!

The Christian religion is based on acknowledging that God exists. They confess to knowing he exists but what he tells them means nothing. They don't take him seriously when he says don't do this or that. They think believing that he exists is all it requires to save their soul. J

Come on now...you who are Christian can read. You are on this website so I assume you can read what God says here. Why don't you believe God? You want to save your soul? He is telling you how. Believing IN God means nothing. It's the "believing" him that is necessary. Believing every word he says.

For some reason christians don't trust him past the grave..
The irony of it all. Everything they see, touch, hear, smell
..everything has come from God. Jesus on the other hand has given mankind nothing. Nothing. They have to wait to die for him to help them.

So Gods given them everything. Even their very lives. And who do they trust and worship? The one who has given them nothing. Nothing but eloquent speeches.
Yet it's jesus they trust. They've given him everything. Even God's glory

Either God speaks the truth or he's lying.

Your post is interesting, and I agree with large parts of it. May I start my comment from the top of your post and go down, touching on every succeeding point you make?

1.) You rightly bring out the two-fold point that the sons are not liable for their fathers' errors and vice versa, thus eradicating the idea of blanket "predestination." Such a statement would not be made if the sons' and fathers' fates were already concluded. Secondly, this shows that the soul can die, therefore it is not immortal, and it does not live on after the death of the body.

2.) Yes, it is all about doing what God says and not doing what he says not to. That is the very issue around the Fall of Man. Adam disobeyed. If he had just done what God told him to do (that is, don't touch the tree), he would still be here!

3.) I don't understand your insistence that we don't have to believe in God. It's a bit silly to me that someone would want to accept all of His gifts to us---this beautiful planet and everything good upon it---and yet not believe in the One who gave us these things. What is the use of the first commandment that God gave to Moses if not to say that humans must recognize YHWH as their God, and none other? It looks to me like He wants us to believe that he exists.

"You must not have any other gods besides me. You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, YHWH your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion." (Exodus 20:3-5)

4.) You wrote, "Believe in God (Jesus) and be saved. If not you will die? Aaaah the threat of an eternal lake of fire has people scared to death. What an angle!" So I'm assuming, from that, that you believe that Jesus is God?? We're not on the same page. Jesus is not God, but God's Son. God is YHWH, translated into English by the King James translators and others as JEHOVAH. Jesus was anointed BY Jehovah and sent BY Jehovah. Jesus prayed TO Jehovah.

5.) You are correct in your assertion that there is more to salvation than just believing. You said that Satan believes, yet he will not be saved. Yes. We must DO what God has said to do and also what He has instructed His Son to tell us.

"Jesus...said: 'What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me.'" (John 7:16)

6.) It is true that self-proclaimed Christian organizations teach that God will torture bad people in a fire forever, and people have believed that lie for centuries. It was made up by church clergy, incorporating Greek mythology into Christian dogma, and those that added to Scripture and twisted it. It was a perfect angle for keeping the populations under control. That was one of the reasons that the Church did not permit people to read the Bible for centuries! Because the Bible does not teach a literal fiery .hell.

7.) I agree that people have come to believe that if they believe God exists and that they "live a good life," that's all it takes (or, as fundamentalist evangelicals say, believe in Christ and you're saved), but that this falls far short of the truth and falls short of what the Bible really teaches.

8.) You say we must believe "every word he [God] teaches." Yes, absolutely! But what do nominal Christians think? Many think that the Bible is old-fashioned , and even if they say they respect it, they don't take what it says seriously. Jesus says to treat even our enemies with love and yet the churches support every nation's armed service s. The Bible teaches that people should not fornicate (which includes adultery, homosexuality, and bestiality), but Church members say that that is old-fashioned, and even the ones that don't say that will turn a blind eye to shenanigans going on within their church. Even the church leaders turn a blind eye. Just about every popular evangelical preacher has been involved in a scandal. On and on it goes.

9.) I disagree that Jesus has given us nothing. He obeyed God perfectly, thus showing that humans could do it in spite of Adam's failure to do so as a perfect creation. That is an encouragement to all humans. He also reiterated teachings from the Hebrew Scriptures and even explained how he fulfilled many of them. He gave us all hope that we can indeed live forever.....that it is not all over when we die. Such love as he exhibited cannot be equaled by anyone (other than the Father). To have a friend like that is priceless.

10.) It is true that people who claim to be Christians have given Jesus God's glory. Even when he said that he didn't look for his own glory. The Father, Jehovah, is ignored. I spoke to a Catholic lady one day and she admitted that yes, the Father is basically ignored. The Scriptures are clear, but truth is not taught in most churches, synagogues and temples.....It is YHWH who is God, and he has appointed his Son as the future King to rule the world. When Jesus' Thousand-Year Reign is done, "he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power....When all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (I Corinthians 15:24-28) So Jesus steps down, as it were, and the Father, Jehovah, becomes at last all things to everyone.


Thank you in advance for taking the time to read my post.

[Am I blind.]

Hi All,

Firstly, I would just like to say, that I am new here and apologise in advance if I have grasped the wrong proverbial end of the wrong proverbial stick.

I know that this thread is a couple of months old but I am intrigued. I have read that Adam was tempted, I believe after Eve succumbed to temptation when in the garden of 'Eden'.

My question is, if 'God' knows everything, and knew what the outcome of giving 'humans' the gift of a 'paradise' was to be. Why did he bother? Wasn't that just a bit deceptive? On one hand he says, here I am providing / giving you everything that you could ever want or need - and then on the other hand knowing that they will ruin the gift and make a complete mess, in effect takes it away.