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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:54 am
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Is gender a spectrum, not binary?

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We hear harrowing or amusing tales about hirsute individuals, scientifically designated as male but in their own heads seen as female, winning awards in women's competitions.

I understand that several female beauticians . I have heard that several women's beautician practices in Canada have had to close down because of litigation. A person who seemed, to the untrained eye, to be a man, endowed with male attributes, wanted treatment that the ladies felt unequal to give, skilled as they were in dealing with people who were clearly female. Over here in the UK I understand that some children as young as six have discovered that they think in terms of a gender they were not designated.


This has all come from a re-evaluation of the concept of gender, once thought, perhaps foolishly, to be about two items.

Is this a move in the right direction?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:08 am
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Re: Is gender a spectrum, not binary?

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[Replying to post 1 by marco]

Gender is a social construct, when it no longer serve society well as a tool, it is time to either update or discard it.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:58 am
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Re: Is gender a spectrum, not binary?

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Bust Nak wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

Gender is a social construct, when it no longer serve society well as a tool, it is time to either update or discard it.


The problem with such a statement is it can either be deadly serious or wildly sarcastic. I suppose languages will still retain their gender items. I can understand sexuality being a construct, but gender does seem to involve two things, in the animal sense anyway. I am genuinely intrigued as to how people can construct things otherwise.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:32 pm
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Re: Is gender a spectrum, not binary?

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marco wrote:
This has all come from a re-evaluation of the concept of gender, once thought, perhaps foolishly, to be about two items.

Is this a move in the right direction?


Are the rules about gender, whether explicit or implicit, unfair? If you think as I do that they are, then changing the rules is a move in the right direction.

marco wrote:
I am genuinely intrigued as to how people can construct things otherwise.


If gender is only about either genotype or phenotype, then most people that one encounters will be "one or the other."

However, if one includes familial roles, employment decisions, how to dress, fairness in sports, attitudes about whether, when, to and by whom harrassment is allowed or encouraged, sexual preferences and living arrangements to all be included within the definition of gender, then there are genuinely many different expressions of gender. Even if you're someone that thinks most of those expressions shouldn't be allowed, they still exist.

As far as I'm concerned, everyone should have the same access to respect, dignity, privacy, and safety in every public space. Nobody should be subjected to attempts to change the aspects of gender expression that are choices or attempts to devalue the aspects that aren't. None of those things is the norm right now, so change that improve those are in the right direction.

I suspect (without knowing, because I can't read your mind) that you can't understand other than a binary representation of gender specifically because you fall into one of the majority gender expressions. You (I assume, based on your gendered name) are an XY with male genitals that dresses "like a man" and are safe-feeling and comfortable being in semi-undress around others with the same gender expression as you. Any change that allows others with a different pattern of expression to feel exactly as safe and comfortable as you do is a move in the right direction.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:46 pm
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Re: Is gender a spectrum, not binary?

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Difflugia wrote:




I suspect (without knowing, because I can't read your mind) that you can't understand other than a binary representation of gender specifically because you fall into one of the majority gender expressions. You (I assume, based on your gendered name) are an XY with male genitals that dresses "like a man" and are safe-feeling and comfortable being in semi-undress around others with the same gender expression as you. Any change that allows others with a different pattern of expression to feel exactly as safe and comfortable as you do is a move in the right direction.



Your name reminds me of a favourite ode of mine by Horace: Diffugere nives, The snows have fled away.

I am not enclosed in concrete. Having imbibed Wilde's ideas when I was quite young, I think my mind is what people call open.

It seems to me, but you will correct my misunderstanding, that when people talk of certain characteristics they are already allocating them to a model of male or female. The physical properties, whether we like it or not, are defining terms; how we act in their possession is entirely up to the individual. But I see no valid reason for extending the word gender beyond duality. I see difficulties when we do.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:14 pm
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Perhaps we are evolving as a species so that the lines become more blurred? I don't know.

From my perspective now, I see it more as black and while. Either male or female, but with some abherrations/mutations going on.

On the other hand when it comes to sexuality and whether someone indentifies with a different sex... or both... ie gay, bisexual, etc, then I believe it is more on a spectrum.

For me, I am well at the extreme end of the male side of the spectrum when it comes to my sexual preferences. For others, it may swing either side of the spectrum and to different extremes. Those in the middle... the bi-sexuals are able to choose what they want to be. Guy's like myself can never choose. We are straight without even an inkling of gay in us. We could never choose to be otherwise. Nor would we ever have a desire to be seen as female.

I hope I am not at risk of taking this topic off on a tangeant here.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:21 am
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OnceConvinced wrote:


I hope I am not at risk of taking this topic off on a tangeant here.


No, not at all OnceConvinced. The issue of one's sexuality is linked to gender. Where we have actions based on liking this or that we obviously have a spectrum and there's no good reason to say which position is optimal. We are all difference, and so be it.

Gender is visibly something else. And it is useful, even esssential, to make some differentiation but NOT preference. If we disregard gender then we will have an interesting situation in sport where males would compete against females. Boxing would be interesting. I agree that foolish discrimination once took place where it was unmerited, as in chess. The Polgar sisters, refusing to take part in "Women's tournaments" rose to equal the best of male chess masters. Obviously "grandMASTER" related to days when it was inconceivable that women could ever be such.

Perhaps in our attempts to be scrupulously fair we have crossed a boundary and we have become rather silly. Here in Scotland a lad of 17, expressing his view that gender for him meant male or female, was expelled from his school for having discriminating views, at odds with school policy.


Old religious ideas, where people must be punished for sinful views, are still with us, it would seem.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:25 pm
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[Replying to marco]

Quote:

But I see no valid reason for extending the word gender beyond duality. I see difficulties when we do.



Indeed.


Pregnant transgender man births stillborn baby, ER missed labor signs
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2019/05/16/pregnant-transgender-man-b...


People have gone mad. We are no longer permitted to state the obvious. And they consider themselves enlightened.


Quote:
Gender is visibly something else. And it is useful, even esssential, to make some differentiation but NOT preference.


Yes, and yet half the population can no longer admit this. For them the greatest moral virtue is being politically correct.

This new practice of Virtue Signaling (the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.) trumps common sense and actual right from wrong. It is no longer about right/wrong. The only thing that matters is that you pretend to care.


Quote:
Perhaps in our attempts to be scrupulously fair we have crossed a boundary and we have become rather silly.



Yes, Marco. You have nailed it. But wait and see the backlash you would get for simply pointing this out. You will be labeled an intolerant, backward thinking, sexist, hateful, bigot. You will be considered inconsiderate, closed minded, and guilty of hate speech. You will be considered the problem. You will be silenced and forbidden to spread your hate. It doesn't matter if you have a point. They do not want to hear it. Facts be damned. It's best to just shut up and get in line, less you become one of the deplorables . . .

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:36 am
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RightReason wrote:




Yes, Marco. You have nailed it. But wait and see the backlash you would get for simply pointing this out. You will be labeled an intolerant, backward thinking, sexist, hateful, bigot. You will be considered inconsiderate, closed minded, and guilty of hate speech. You will be considered the problem. You will be silenced and forbidden to spread your hate. It doesn't matter if you have a point. They do not want to hear it. Facts be damned. It's best to just shut up and get in line, less you become one of the deplorables . . .


Then I am standing with the little boy who shouted that the Emperor was stark naked. When we are fighting psychology it isn't helpful to abandon common sense, or budgeon the obvious. I don't doubt that some people have issues with a variety of things, but making universal adjustments to accommodate some private misconception is hardly wise. The Scots have a saying: "They are all out of step but our Jock."


Apostles of modern times, serving the god of political correctness, are apparently "woke". In many formerly civilised countries students shout down professors who attempt to engage their woolly ideas: debate is measured in decibels.
I'm not sure how many absurdities and injustices we have to tolerate before woke folk awake. Perhaps the condition is terminal.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:17 pm
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Marco wrote:

Quote:
Then I am standing with the little boy who shouted that the Emperor was stark naked.


I'm so glad you said that, Marco, because I have always thought of the whole transgender issue as an example wherein people are too afraid to be called a bigot to state that the emperor has no clothes.

The Bible says God made humankind, male and female. How does a man even know what it "feels" like to be a woman. I, as a woman, certainly wouldn't have a clue what it feels like to be a man. But there's the problem -- it's based on feelings, and we know how dangerous it is to let our feelings dictate to us. Rationality and reality seem to play no part in the discussion about transgenders. It's all about how they feel.

It bothers me when people allow a five-year-old to dictate whether they want to live as a boy or a girl. Would these people also let the child dictate what he eats (chocolate chip cookies would have been my choice) and when he goes to bed, whether he goes to school or not, etc.? Children don't know enough to make these kinds of decisions.

It also bothers me that there are young people being subjected to sex-change procedures when they are still too immature to have figured everything out about themselves, who they are, how they were made, etc. Instead of rushing to meet someone's feelings about themselves, why not hold off and help them sort out those feelings to find out if they're healthy, real, viable, etc.?

I listened to an interview with a man who thought he should have been a woman and went through the sex change operation, hormone treatment, etc., thinking he was meant to be female, only to find out that he was wrong. He had all kinds of problems, went for psychological help, discovered that he had mental health issues and, once he dealt successfully with those, went back to being a man. He realized his feelings about being a woman grew out of his problems and weren't based in reality at all.

I think the LGBTQ agenda is so pervasive and successful that people have lost their reason in some cases while, in others, people are too frightened of the attacks they will receive should they speak out against transgenderism.

It is an issue that Christians take seriously. See here:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevin-deyoung/what-does-the-bible-say-a...

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