Curse of Ham / Canaan

[Zzyzx]

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Curse of Ham / Canaan

A drunken ‘perfect man who walks with God’ curses his grandson (Canaan) because his son (Ham) saw him naked.

Genesis 9:

20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26 And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

According to the tale Noah gets drunk, lies about naked, and is seen naked by a son (oh horror of it all) and then curses a grandson to be a servant.

Note: This tale was used for many centuries as justification of slavery and/or subjugation of black people.

An interesting Wikipedia article with many references
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Ham

If anyone were ‘cursed’, shouldn’t it be the drunken Noah? What did Canaan have to do with the matter?

Wait a minute: A drunken Noah seems less than ‘perfect’ as he was described in Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

[JehovahsWitness]

QUESTION Were people with black skin cursed?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 317#857317





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[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

Care to address the OP?

Notice that it points out a drunken 'perfect man' and the irrational cursing of someone who was not involved in seeing him drunk.

Better to duck such matters?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 3 by Zzyzx]

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Curse of Ham / Canaan ...What did Canaan have to do with the matter?

I did. Did you miss my post on the topic? Here is the link to what I wrote in case you missed it.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 317#857317




JW

[Zzyzx]

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I did. Did you miss my post on the topic? Here is the link to what I wrote in case you missed it.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 317#857317

If you wish to debate the OP presented, kindly do so in this thread.

A drunken 'perfect man'

Irrational 'cursing'

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 5 by Zzyzx]

My post addresses the "curse of Caanan" a point you raised in the OP...

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Curse of Ham / Canaan ...What did Canaan have to do with the matter?

This is the point I have addressed. If I have violated forum rules feel free to report it. Otherwise I do believe there is a mechanism you have to ignore posts that you are uninterested in addressing.

Please have a most excellent day,


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

GENESIS 6:9
Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations - KJV

QUESTION Was Noah perfect?

• Firstly, we should note that the bible describes Noah as being "perfect in his generations". The word "perfect" basically means complete/whole so Noah is being compared to his contemporaries (his generations) and is described as complete in some sense.

Does perfection mean one is sinless?

• Many believe that that which is biblically refered to as "perfect" (Heb. tamim ) must by necessity be without sin. They are therefore suprised to see that individuals described as "perfect" committed errors, sometimes even gross sin. The bible Encyclopedia "Insight on the Scriptures" makes the following comment on this point:
  

  [The Hebrew word is tamim] has the meaning “be complete, completed; come to perfection; come to a finish. (Ps 19:13; 1Ki 6:22; Isa 18:5; Jer 24:10; compare 1Sa 16:11, where the phrase translated “Are these all the boys? literally means “Are the boys completed?) In the Greek Septuagint, the Hebrew word tam is sometimes translated aʹmem·ptos. (Job 1:1, 8; 2:3; 9:20) Forms of this word also appear in the Christian Greek Scriptures and may be defined as “blameless; faultless. ”Lu 1:6; Php 3:6; Heb 8:7; see PERFECTION.
  
  When used in describing humans, the term "blameless" must always be viewed as relative, not absolute. Suffering Job drew wrong conclusions about Jehovah, including how the Almighty regarded blameless ones. (Job 9:20-22) Zechariah, the father of John the Baptizer, manifested lack of faith in Jehovah's declaration through the angel Gabriel. (Lu 1:18-20) Still, Job and Zechariah were said to be blameless, for they measured up to what Jehovah expected of humans who, though faithful, were marred by imperfection. Job 1:1; Lu 1:6
  source https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200000768

  Further reading:
  http://www.lookingup.us/rel/perfection.php
  https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... ongs=h8549
  
  Thus "Tamyim" can mean being judged as completely meeting a required standard, being free from the blame associated with being lacking. The JPS Tanakh 1917 renders Genesis 6:9 as "Noah was in his generations a man righteous and wholehearted" While God had judged his generation as deserving of death, Noah was whole/complete. He was not sinless but he was judged "blameless". Note the following bible translations.
  
  

  NIV
  Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.
  
  New Living Translation
  This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, the only blameless person living on earth at the time, and he walked in close fellowship with God.
  
  English Standard Version
  These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God.
  
  Berean Study Bible
  This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God.
  
  New American Standard Bible
  These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.
  
  Christian Standard Bible
  These are the family records of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among his contemporaries; Noah walked with God.
  
  Holman Christian Standard Bible
  These are the family records of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among his contemporaries; Noah walked with God.
  
  International Standard Version
  These are the family records of Noah: Noah was a righteous man. Blameless during his times, Noah communed with God.
  
  NET Bible
  This is the account of Noah. Noah was a godly man; he was blameless among his contemporaries. He walked with God.
  
  New Heart English Bible
  This is the history of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time. Noah walked with God.
  
  New American Standard 1977
  These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.
  
  World English Bible
  This is the history of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time. Noah walked with God.
  
  
  source: https://biblehub.com/genesis/6-9.htm

CONCLUSION Noah is not described as being sinless or "perfect" in the absolute sense. Rather he is described as being above blame or complete in relation to his contemporaries. So while Noah was guilty of the weaknesses prone to all imperfect humans, he was judged by God as having met His [God's] standards for him and stood blameless compared to the wicked people of his generation.




JW





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To learn more please go to other posts related to ...

NOAH, PERFECTION , and ... THE GLOBAL FLOOD

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 7 by JehovahsWitness]

WHY attempt to justify a drunk who puts a curse on an innocent person?

When all else fails try word play.

"The Bible doesn't mean what it says, it means what I want it to mean."

"Perfect doesn't mean perfect it means whatever I want it to mean."

"Bible translators and editors don't know how to translate. I know better."

"I have oceanfront land for sale in New Mexico. Oceanfront doesn't mean that the land is adjacent to the ocean. New Mexico is an improper translation and really means Iowa."

[JehovahsWitness]

WHY attempt to justify .... a curse on an innocent person?

Emphasis MINE


Who are you refering to as "an innocent person" and why?

Irrational 'cursing'

What do you deem as "irrational" about Noah's curse?

[SallyF]

Not a soul ever demonstrates that this "scripture" has anything to do with anyone's version of "God".

It was written by humans.

It is propaganda.

Humans are political creatures, and, given the absence of evidence for "God" in the propaganda, it is legitimate to explore the POSSIBILITY that were are dealing with political propaganda.

I offer the hypothesis that this tale deals with the Canaanite politics of a much later time.

It is not prophecy.

I offer that it is a fanciful explanation of the reason for the political situation that was current in Canaan/Israel/Judea/Idumea in Greco-Roman times.

For those who are genuinely interested in exploring this possibility, I'll offer two clues.

"Wine" represents an elevated level of religious knowledge. Turning water into wine is not a magic trick at all.

"Japtheth" represents the Greco-Romans - remember the geographical distribution of the sons of Noah after the mythological "Flood".

So while this "scripture" is indeed symbolic/metaphoric/figurative, in my view, what it represents is genuine human politics of a later time, set as well-known ancient mythology.

I think it's quite clever … once one escapes the traps of belief and "faith".

Given that the earliest copies of this propaganda are from the time of Herod the Great, it's worth questioning who the propaganda was meant to promote …?

And who was the third most powerful man in the Roman Empire who built a magnificent new temple …?

Certainly worth a bit of tweaking of the traditional "scriptures" to celebrate all that …!

Especially if you've married the high priest's daughter and you have whole bunch of jobs to hand out to those who can write good things about you.

The possibly fictional Jesus character got a whole bunch of new "scripture" and he is not known to have put one stone on top of another.

If one can't show "God" in these writings, some of us can certainly show human politics.