Reasons Why Atheists Will “shun� (reject) a Christian Cl

[Jagella]

Christian apologists are not always successful in converting people or convincing skeptics that the claims made by Christianity are true. Atheists, in particular, tend to be very difficult to persuade. How can that be when apologists have many philosophical arguments supporting the credibility of Christianity? Any honest, sensible, informed person should be able to see the truth in these arguments and change accordingly, or at least that's the way apologists see the matter.

Apologist J. Warner Wallace in his Why Some People Simply Will Not Be Convinced has come up with three reasons he thinks are why many people will reject or "shun" a Christian truth claim:

• 1. Sometimes folks simply have rational doubts based on the evidence.
  2. Many people have doubts that are purely emotional. They hate Christianity.
  3. Still others deliberately resist any and all attempts to convert them and wish to remain independent of Christian restraints.

Question for Debate: Would any of the skeptics here say that they fall into any of these three categories?

As for myself, I would say that all three reasons to some degree contribute to my doubt. As in 1, I think that the dearth of evidence for Christianity definitely makes me skeptical. Moreover, as in 2, I don't feel inclined to become a Christian because I do not like Christianity. Finally, I do resist attempts to convert me as in reason 3.

Unfortunately J. Warner Wallace does not list one of my main reasons for doubting the Christian faith: I have read the Bible and see it as a combination of myth and barbaric history. It is not a credible tome. I did not come to that conclusion as an atheist but when I was yet a Christian.

[benchwarmer]

Perhaps these apologists need to get some tips from their God? I'm sure a real god would know exactly what to say or do to convince stubborn atheists?

Or perhaps the real God would simply say something like "Let 'em go, I'll show them, in the end".

I know that's meant to be funny, but if the real God actually said that I would consider that god to be mean spirited rather than loving. Why not simply share the required knowledge to convince the atheists? The god knows everything, including what would convince the atheists, right?

I mean, if you could convince all us unruly atheists, then surely all the disagreeing Christian sects would quickly follow suit as well. Perhaps there's not enough room in heaven for everyone? No point in quickly clearing up this mess if you have to turn people away at the pearly gates.

[Jagella]

Many people like the stories contained in the Bible. For many, it's a good read at the very least. Even for some atheists or agnostics. Somewhat analogous to the enjoyment of Geek myths. Few believe in Zeus and Hera anymore but many still enjoy the tales.

I have no problem with the Bible read and understood as what it is--a collection of myths, legends, and folklore. Its stories have value as ancient literature.

[OnceConvinced]

How can I love or hate a god I don't believe in?

Hating a God you don't believe in is not as hard as you may think. Just read the Bible, and you will learn of a God that is both very unbelievable and and very unlovable.

Errr Jagella. Former Christian here. Studied the bible thoroughly for many years. I am now an ex-Christian and I don't hate the god of the bible, just like I don't hate Voldermort or Emperor Palpatine.

Sure, the bible god now comes across to me as a monster, but I don't hate him. I have no emotions for him anymore due to the fact I no longer see him as real.

I'm sure a real god would know exactly what to say or do to convince stubborn atheists?

If I ever run into a real god, then I will let you know whom he can convince. Until then, we'll need to settle for the god of the apologists. That god pouts when people don't believe in him.

[/quote]

According to the god of the apologist, their God knows us better than we know ourselves. He even knows the number of hairs on our heads. So he surely knows exactly what it would take to convince us of his existance. And if he's as loving and caring as they say he is, he'd do everything he can to convince us, especially us ones who really want to believe. I even invite him to violate my freewill if he wants to.

Fortunately it doesn't matter if an apologist thinks we're just too stubborn, that we'd never believe no matter what. It's not the apologist that needs to convince us of God's existance. It's not the apologist who wants a relationship with us. Who wants us as children. It's not the apologist who requires us to worship and adore him.

[OnceConvinced]

Perhaps these apologists need to get some tips from their God? I'm sure a real god would know exactly what to say or do to convince stubborn atheists?

Or perhaps the real God would simply say something like "Let 'em go, I'll show them, in the end".

A very vengeful god you have there, Elijah. More interested in punishing me than saving me it seems!

But this particular ex-Chrisitan never wanted him to let me go. He fought tooth and nail against it. I'd welcome him back in my life if he wanted to be, if he really is as wonderful as I used to believe he was. Even if he's not quite as wonderful as I thought he was. I actually wish he would come back and would be more than happy for him to violate my freewill if necessary.

[Tcg]

I have no problem with the Bible read and understood as what it is--a collection of myths, legends, and folklore. Its stories have value as ancient literature.

The danger of course is that for some the Bible is considered much more than ancient literature. Some folks make the mistake of considering it authoritative on concepts like God, sin, salvation, heaven, hell, angels, demons, etc.. If people would realize that there is no correlation between these myths and reality, it would be as harmless as any other tale. Sadly, that is very often not the case.


Tcg

[Jagella]

...I don't hate the god of the bible, just like I don't hate Voldermort or Emperor Palpatine.

Oh sure, but you're not into fiction. A good writer is very capable of creating loathsome characters. I think the Bible writers did just that with Yahweh, albeit unwittingly. I find Yahweh to be very obnoxious killing innocent people and then demanding that their loved ones who survived his genocide love and worship him! So even if he's fictional, he's still a jerk.

According to the god of the apologist, their God knows us better than we know ourselves. He even knows the number of hairs on our heads.

People love to create gods and then make claims about them that cannot be proved true or false. So OC, if you ever make up a god, don't make that god falsifiable.

...if he's as loving and caring as they say he is, he'd do everything he can to convince us, especially us ones who really want to believe. I even invite him to violate my freewill if he wants to.

I'd gladly give up my free will in exchange for access to the Playboy mansion. There are more important things in life than free will, after all.

Fortunately it doesn't matter if an apologist thinks we're just too stubborn, that we'd never believe no matter what. It's not the apologist that needs to convince us of God's existance. It's not the apologist who wants a relationship with us. Who wants us as children. It's not the apologist who requires us to worship and adore him.

Yes, but the apologist needs us to buy his books, and here I thought that God provides!

[Jagella]

The danger of course is that for some the Bible is considered much more than ancient literature. Some folks make the mistake of considering it authoritative on concepts like God, sin, salvation, heaven, hell, angels, demons, etc.. If people would realize that there is no correlation between these myths and reality, it would be as harmless as any other tale. Sadly, that is very often not the case.

It seems to me that when people believe the Bible, they do so as a result of being indoctrinated rather than just reading it for themselves. How many Christian sects tell people to read the Bible and come to their own conclusions? None that I know of. If the different Christian churches really believed the Bible imparted truth to the reader, then they'd let people read and understand it for themselves. That the churches don't let people think for themselves about the Bible is a tacit admission that the Bible is inadequate to get people to believe what the sects wants them to believe.

Besides, the Bible can be a great "atheist creator."

[OnceConvinced]

...I don't hate the god of the bible, just like I don't hate Voldermort or Emperor Palpatine.

Oh sure, but you're not into fiction. A good writer is very capable of creating loathsome characters.

I am a writer and I DO create loathsome characters. My books are on my website if anyone is interested. I create these characters myself but I don't hate them.

Some of my favourite TV shows centre around dispicable characters. I don't hate them either. eg Joffrey and Ramsy Bolton on Game of Thrones were truly dispicable characters. Even though I was glad when they both met their demise and cheered, I never hated them because I knew they were fictional.

I think the Bible writers did just that with Yahweh, albeit unwittingly. I find Yahweh to be very obnoxious killing innocent people and then demanding that their loved ones who survived his genocide love and worship him! So even if he's fictional, he's still a jerk.

I agree but that doesnt mean I hold any emotions for him.

I'd gladly give up my free will in exchange for access to the Playboy mansion. There are more important things in life than free will, after all.

Agreed. I look at at it his way. If God is real and I'm going to go to Hell one day because I don't believe, then I'd rather be a robot all my life with God violating my freewill. I'd happily give up my freewill to avoid eternal damnation.

Yes, but the apologist needs us to buy his books, and here I thought that God provides!

Ha ha. Good point.

[OnceConvinced]

It seems to me that when people believe the Bible, they do so as a result of being indoctrinated rather than just reading it for themselves. How many Christian sects tell people to read the Bible and come to their own conclusions? None that I know of.

This is very true. Having been in church leadership, I have learnt that it's never a good thing to leave new Chrisians to their own devices. Church leaders know this full well and realise the importance of having people in place to help newbies. They know that most of the time new Christians will drift away and not remain a Christian if they don't have a support group in place. It's one of the reasons why home/cell groups are considered cruicial to churches. Without them, large churches in particular, will not be able to keep the people there.

Every church I've belonged to has had mentoring programs in place. Either someone to help them and guide them, answering their questions, or bible study groups they can attend. Sometimes ones for new Christians. If not that, then you're given a lot of bible study material to help you along your way and understanding the basic beliefs according to that denomination of Christianity.

I think it's avery telling that it's never just left up to the holy spirit. The holy spirit alone should surely be enough for any Chrisitan to be able to study the bible and understand it. However nobody relies on the holy spirt when it comes to new Christians do they? Deep down they know it's not going to do the job and that this new Christian needs a helping hand by real people to understand it.

[Jagella]

I'd gladly give up my free will in exchange for access to the Playboy mansion. There are more important things in life than free will, after all.

Agreed. I look at at it his way. If God is real and I'm going to go to Hell one day because I don't believe, then I'd rather be a robot all my life with God violating my freewill. I'd happily give up my freewill to avoid eternal damnation.

What's going on with apologists and all this "free will" nonsense is that the God they preach is a "good" God who allows suffering. That's an oxymoron. So to smooth things over, they've created the idea of free will which they say is granted by God. (It is not found anywhere in the Bible.) They tell us that this free will is what's best for us; it's so good, that it's worth suffering for. They tell us that without this free will we would be "robots" with no choice but to be good.

And wouldn't a world full of robots be the worst world?

It may be a matter of opinion, but I think I'd love a world full of good robots. I'd take them over inquisitors any time. Free will doesn't even come close to those wonderful robots!

Having been in church leadership, I have learnt that it's never a good thing to leave new Chrisians to their own devices. Church leaders know this full well and realise the importance of having people in place to help newbies. They know that most of the time new Christians will drift away and not remain a Christian if they don't have a support group in place. It's one of the reasons why home/cell groups are considered cruicial to churches. Without them, large churches in particular, will not be able to keep the people there.

I remember as a Christian my pastor would visit me at home. When I decided to attend another church, he told me he would no longer visit me, and he kept that promise.

Every church I've belonged to has had mentoring programs in place. Either someone to help them and guide them, answering their questions, or bible study groups they can attend. Sometimes ones for new Christians. If not that, then you're given a lot of bible study material to help you along your way and understanding the basic beliefs according to that denomination of Christianity.

When churches "help" people to study the Bible this way, I think it's a tacit admission that the Bible is a difficult book to "understand" if it can be understood at all. Your chosen church presumably has the experts to educate you about the Bible, but of course they are not educating people but indoctrinating them.

I think it's avery telling that it's never just left up to the holy spirit. The holy spirit alone should surely be enough for any Chrisitan to be able to study the bible and understand it. However nobody relies on the holy spirt when it comes to new Christians do they? Deep down they know it's not going to do the job and that this new Christian needs a helping hand by real people to understand it.

Yes. The Holy Ghost needs a lot of help. Some Christians have told me that the Holy Ghost will convert me and not they. They don't seem to realize that neither they nor the Ghost seems to be having much luck. I wonder where that Ghost was when I discovered those contradictions in the Bible.