Debates on Christianity, Creation vs Evolution, Philosophy, Politics and Religion, Ethics, Current Events, and Religious issues

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3

Reply to topic
ResentfulBelly17
First Post
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:09 am  The Doctrine of Trinity is a false doctrine and is unbiblica Reply with quote

Debate Format:

I. Affirmative 1st stand
II. Negative cross examination
III. Negative 1st stand
IV. Affirmative cross examination
V. Affirmative 2nd stand
VI. Negative cross examination
VII. Negative 2nd stand
VIII. Affirmative cross examination
IX. Affirmative 3rd stand
X. Negative cross examination
XI. Negative 3rd stand
XII. Affirmative cross examination
XIII. Affirmative conclusion
XIV. Negative conclusion

Note: cross examination is max of 10 questions
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:19 am
Reply

Like this post
Quote:
#1. The Shema teaches that the Lord our God is one Lord, if the trinity is a truth later revealed in the NT, then Mark 12:29 could have been the best opportunity for Jesus to reveal it instead he echoed the Shema. It's no surprise that Jesus didnt rebuke the teacher when he acknowledges Jesus answer and said further that he is right that God is one and no other beside him.


You are correct that the Shema teaches that the Lord our God is one Lord.

It's your opinion of what Jesus should teach. Nothing in Mark 12:29 is of any concern to professing the Trinity.

Quote:
#2. There is no issue in John 17:3, it categorically introduces to us who is the one true God which is the Father. If you are confused on why Jesus said eternal life depeds on knowing a non-God as you say it, then you clearly dont know his purpose why he was sent.


If you believe the Shema as passionately as the Jews do and as Christians do then your point 1 and point 2 defeat you. No one that really believes in the Shema would allow eternal life to be based on a not God being.

Please show how a not god being is of use to our salvation during the debate.

Quote:
#3. You need to know both. John said to you not to be troubled and believe on both Smile john 14:1

Yes because Jesus is God I give the new testament the time of day. I value and protect the Shema. You need to not just quote the Bible but demonstrate how a not God being has the right to say: Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.

You aren't making your case at all in your first and post.

Quote:
#4. I dont see an issue here since Jesus was sent by God himself and again, believing Jesus is tantamaount in believing also in God. Afterall Jesus did not preach a different God but his Father alone. So there's really no issue here. The Father himself said we should listen to his Son in Luke 9:35. Afterall it doesnt diminish God to a lower level rather it glorified him if we have faith in His son.


If you are correct why did the Jews try to protect the Shema and kill Jesus? Try to answer my questions please.

Quote:
#5. I dont agree with you in 1 cor 8:6. This scripture shows two classificatio, one who is the only true God and one who is our Lord. There's no confusion here since this is very categorical. And arent you wondering why did Paul just said that the only person who is the only God is the Father? For me if Paul was a trinitarian he shouldve said "for us there is only one God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit but no, he categorically defined that person who is the only God as the Father


Try using the whole passage when you debate.
1 cor 8: 4 - Paul uses the Shema because he really cares about the Shema and it referring to one being called God.
1 cor 8:6 - Paul calls Jesus Lord.

The shema: Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

It beggars belief that Paul did not mean that Jesus is Lord.
God = Lord
Jesus = Lord
Jesus = God

Quote:
17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”


Jesus on Earth has condescended to live amongst us. As a man he worships God. God the Father is His Father, just as God the Son is the Son of the Father and God the Spirit is the Spirit of them both.

Your job is to establish the trinity as not biblical. Nothing presented here did so. Whereas there are serious doubts about your belief and adherence to the Shema because you willingly join a not God being to God.

Last question: Which part of your first argument shows the Trinity as unbiblical and why does it show that?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:45 am
Reply

Like this post
[Replying to post 21 by Wootah]

It's not the time for you to evaluate my answers based on your opinion, we're done with the Affirmative 1st stand and Cross examination, now is the time for the Negative 1st stand then I will cross examine you just like you did but I will not explain anything on my cross examination since it supposed to be done during my stands

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:00 am
Reply

Like this post
Negative 1st stand

Two Powers in Heaven

There is clearly in the Old Testament something going on that has been called the two powers in Heaven theory. This is the fact that Judaism recognised at least two beings in the Bible that were God, the invisible Father YHWH in Heaven and a visible Angel of the Lord YHWH on Earth.

Example 1
Genesis 19:24 - YHWH rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah sulfurous fire from YHWH out of heaven.

This example shows God raining fire from God out of heaven. Two Gods?

Example 2
Amos 4:11 I have wrought destruction among you, as when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah; You have become like a brand plucked from burning. Yet you have not turned back to me - declares YHWH.

This example shows God talking about how he created destruction amongst them just like when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

Example 3 Akedah
Gen 22:1-12
It is God testing Abraham in line 1 and God telling him in line 2 to sacrifice his only son but in line 11 it is the Angel of the Lord calling out from heaven and in line 12 the Angel of the Lord that says stop because you have not withheld your only son from him. This means that the Angel of the Lord is God.

All three examples are taken from this video by Dr Michael Heiser talking on this theory in the first 10 minutes but of course the whole video is worthwhile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUkhWBKCuXc

This clearly demonstrates that since the Shema is true then it has to encompass ideas greater than God being only one person the Father.

There is also a very good video by Mike Winger on the Angel of the Lord https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryCyQ4N08Q0 that demonstrates that the Angel of the Lord is Jesus in the Old Testament. But I am not going to argue this at this stage because the purpose of this post is only to demonstrate clearly that our understanding of the shema and God needs to encompass more than one being. Actually example 3 is enough to demonstrate that the Angel of the Lord is God.

It all makes me wonder if the shema emphasises that the Lord our God is one because of the difficulties in reconciling these two powers in heaven and through the shema God wants to prevent polytheism from developing from the biblical text.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:49 pm
Reply

Like this post
[Replying to post 23 by Wootah]

1st question: I thought the Trinity means there are three then why there's only two poeers according to you?

2nd question: you cited Gen 9:24 and according to you this shows the trinity. My question then is are there to YHVH?

3rd question: Is the angel of the Lord part of the Trinity?

Here are my first 3 questions, ill have some follow up based on your answers.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:00 am
Reply

Like this post
[Replying to ResentfulBelly17]

1) my point is to demonstrate ideas in the Bible that exist that need explaining while making the shema valid. We will build to the Trinity over the debate.

2) Check out the Hebrew: https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/19-24.htm

YHWH is mentioned twice. I believe the Shema and so there must be another way to explain that verse which will in the end be called the Trinity. Are there two YHWH for you?

3) The Angel of the Lord is definitely God and I think is Jesus and is part of the Trinity.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:50 pm
Reply

Like this post
[Replying to post 25 by Wootah]

Ill clarify my #1 question, you cited Genesis 19:24 and you concluded that the bible recognizes two powers in heaven. Im asking you cause im curious why did you mention the phrase two powers if there are three.

Question #4: how many Angel of the Lord are there in the bible?

Question #5: you said you just think that Jesus is the Angel of the Lord, donyou accept that you said this?

Question #6: how many Gods and Lords does the Shema teaches?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 27: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:17 am
Reply

Like this post
[Replying to post 26 by ResentfulBelly17]

1# I believe the phrase 'two powers in heaven ', a book title by Alan Segal, to be the summary phrase to encapsulate the concept I am discussing: Jewish rabbinic thought could see two beings identifying as God in the Bible.

4# There is one Angel of the Lord.

5# Yes I think Jesus is the Angel of the Lord.

6# One God the Lord. One being.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 28: Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:58 pm
Reply

Like this post
[Replying to post 27 by Wootah]


sorry for the late reply, been busy. Thank u for clarifying question 1 answer.

#7 is there any textual proof that says that there is only 1 angel of the Lord?

#8 if you think that Jesus is the angel of the Lord, does it mean to say the idea is not derived from the biblie rather an assumption only based on a few text? (Cherry picking)

#9 who then is the angel of the Lord who appeared to Joseph and Mary?

#10 is it true that Jesus was made higher that all the angels?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 29: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:26 pm
Reply

Like this post
ResentfulBelly17 wrote:

[Replying to post 27 by Wootah]


sorry for the late reply, been busy. Thank u for clarifying question 1 answer.

#7 is there any textual proof that says that there is only 1 angel of the Lord?

#8 if you think that Jesus is the angel of the Lord, does it mean to say the idea is not derived from the biblie rather an assumption only based on a few text? (Cherry picking)

#9 who then is the angel of the Lord who appeared to Joseph and Mary?

#10 is it true that Jesus was made higher that all the angels?



7) i don't know is there? Its hard to know whose side that would help.

8) We can all be guity of cherry picking.

9) Gabriel.

10) Of course.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 30: Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:34 am
Reply

Like this post
Please note I am not watching this thread any longer. Please PM me when you respond so I can check it.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Display posts from previous:   

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3

Jump to:  
Facebook
Tweet

 




On The Web | Ecodia | Hymn Lyrics Apps
Facebook | Twitter

Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.   Produced by Ecodia.

Igloo   |  Lo-Fi Version