Ex-Christians are powerful voices against Christianity

[Zzyzx]

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Ex-Christians are powerful voices against Christianity

Since they were once Believers (perhaps very devout), they have insider knowledge of dogma, doctrine, practices, rituals, and literature. No amount of ‘you weren’t really Christian’ can discredit what they experienced and what they say. ‘Your cult wasn’t REAL Christianity (like mine is)’ rings exceedingly hollow and self-serving.

Apostates came to realize (often after decades) that they were duped and may be angry about the time and devotion that they wasted chasing an illusion. Some may offer assistance and/or encouragement for others to question what they are told to believe – and find a way out.

Several very capable Non-Theist debaters here are prime examples of escaped Christians. Others post at www.ExChristian.net and www.ClergyProject.org. Others of us never drank the Kool-Aid but have experience dealing with Christians who attempt to push their beliefs onto others with social pressure, emotional appeals, threats, promises, and/or legislation.

[Divine Insight]

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No amount of ‘you weren’t really Christian’ can discredit what they experienced and what they say. ‘Your cult wasn’t REAL Christianity (like mine is)’ rings exceedingly hollow and self-serving.

Absolutely. Not only this, but anyone who thinks like this is only displaying their own extreme ignorance. The only way they could make such a claim is to think that the very specific denomination they had been indoctrinated into is the only faction of Christianity that is true. And that clearly displays an extreme ignorance of theology in general.

But as you point out, I've had theists suggest such obvious nonsense to me. They ask what denomination I "belonged" to. I tell them that I was raised and taught the religion as a Free Methodist. Then they start bashing on that specific denomination. Or claim that perhaps my specific church simply had it all wrong.

At that point all they have done is demonstrate that they aren't even worthy of conversing with. They clearly have no understanding of reality.

To begin with, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the Church or denomination that I was born and raised into. In fact, of all the demoninations of Christianity that I have studied since I'd say that the one I grew up in was one of the more intelligent ones and certainly wasn't the reason I left the religion. I didn't have a problem with our church at all.

What I did was study the Bible. Not my denomination's views on it, although I was aware of those as well.

It was through my study of the Bible that I discovered that Christianity cannot possibly be true as claimed by the Bible itself. Not only this but I did look into other demoninations to see what they believed. And I could see the error in their theologies as well. I even looked into Judaism and various forms of Islam. I found them all to be clearly false without exception.

In fact, anything that is based upon the original Biblical stories is necessarily false. So the idea that it had to do with any denomination or faction of this religion is simple false.

The other thing too that often cracks me up is that many theists try to convince me that if I would only give their denomination or church a change I could "See the light". But again, this is utterly absurd and is based on their extreme ignorance in thinking that I haven't already given those denominations sufficient examination.

In fact, Jehovah's Witnesses crack me up the most. I can tell them exactly what they "Must Believe" if they want to continue to claim to be Jehovah's Witnesses. All you need to do in that case is recite the WatchTower to them and if they disagree with anything in it then they have no business calling themselves a Jehovah's Witness., They have no choice but to be spoon-fed their theology directly from the organization they have chosen to join. And I've read more WatchTower articles than I care to remember and I can assure you they have just as many self-contradictory claims as the original Bible. So they are no further ahead. Not only this, but if they disagreed with the Bible they could hardly be claiming to be addressing the Biblical God anyway. So it's just nothing more than nonsense. It's already been thoroughly debunked. There's no more debunking that needs to be done.

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Just today I was at my cousin's house. He's a very devout Catholic. He's also interested in philosophy. And so we often have philosophical and theological discussions. He's well aware of my rejection of Christianity as being clearly false. And actually we haven't discussed religion in several years because we have come to realize that neither one of us is going to change our mind on it.

However, just today he brought up the topic. He had watched a documentary on the Shroud of Turin and was proclaiming that science has determined that it's authentic.

I couldn't help but roll my eyes right in front of him. I told him directly outright that this theology has so many obvious self-contradictions and flaws in it that something like the Shroud of Turin simply isn't going to salvage it.

Clearly these theists are desperate to believe in this religion. But what they don't seem to understand is that before they can believe that Jesus is their "savior" they must first believe that they deserve to be damned. And they must also believe that they were created by a Creator God who was so ignorant to not even design in a way for them to earn their own salvation via their own merit.

I mean, the whole idea that some God created a bunch of flawed humans who can only be "saved" by accepting the brutal crucifixion of a supposedly unblemished "Lamb of God" to pay for their sins, is already too absurd to even seriously entertain.

And why anyone would want to believe in such a theology as a matter of pure faith is beyond me. I certainly wouldn't want to believe that I deserve to be damned by my creator and the only way I could be "saved" is via a totally undeserved forgiveness made possible by the brutal crucifixion of a supposedly perfect and innocent God, demigod, or "Son of God".

I would never want to believe that on pure faith. To the contrary, I would much prefer to have faith that it's not true.

And yet these theists seem to be desperate to believe "ON PURE FAITH" that they deserve to be damned.

What in the world is up with that?

I can't understand why anyone would want that to be true. It would seem to me that a person would need to be insane to actually want that to be true.

I would only believe it if I thought I had absolutely no choice but to believe it. And even then I would consider it to be the most depressing situation I could ever find myself in.

I just can't understand why anyone would want Christianity to be true. The only thing I can figure is that they have been convinced that if it's not true then death is certain and they can't handle that reality, so they cling to the idea that they deserve to be damned. All just to avoid the idea that they might otherwise just die.

That's the only thing that makes any sense to me.

I can't imagine why anyone would actually want Christianity to be true.

The only people who should believe in it are people who have been totally convinced that it is true, and that they therefore have no choice but to believe it. And even they should be dismally depressed if that's the case. They certainly shouldn't be rejoicing that some God is going to offer them undeserved amnesty if they merely believe that God had orchestrated a drama of having himself or his demigod Son brutally crucified by humans.

IMHO, this religion is an insult to all that's decent and good. It actually creates an absolute monster of a God who is not only untrustworthy and ignorant, but he would need to be extremely stupid as well.

Any God who thinks that I would be happy with this situation is definitely a very stupid God indeed.

Let there be no doubt about that.

And if I'm not happy about it why should I want to believe in on pure faith alone?

This is a religion that only makes sense if we have no choice but to believe it. Because anyone who actually finds this theology to be attractive has to either truly not understand it, or they have to be seriously mentally confused.

Why would anyone want to believe that they deserve to be damned?

On pure faith?

What sense does that make?

Someone please tell me.

AND,...

If any theists would like to tell me I have it all wrong, please step forward and don't be shy.

Because you would basically need to convince me that I don't deserve to be damned AND that I still need an unblemished sacrificial lamb to "save" me from being damned.

In short, it's simply not possible. No Christian theist can salvage this theology without either demanding that I deserve to be damned (which is both utterly absurd and supports everything I've just said above), or proclaiming that I don't need Jesus to serve as my sacrificial scapegoat.

But what Christian theist is going to claim that I don't need Jesus to be my sacrificial scapegoat? This is the entire foundation of the religion. They simply cannot toss that one out. So there's no way to salvage this theology short of trying to convince me that I should be absolutely THRILLED with the idea that I deserved to be damned to the point that I toss all rational logic out the window and just believe ON PURE FAITH, that I deserve to be damned. And that I should rejoice that this is the case.

[OnceConvinced]

But DI, what if you want to live in Heaven for all eternity? What if you want to escape death? Isn't that a valid reason for wanting to believe that nonsense? Even with all it's flaws?

[Divine Insight]

But DI, what if you want to live in Heaven for all eternity? What if you want to escape death? Isn't that a valid reason for wanting to believe that nonsense? Even with all it's flaws?

I suppose so. But don't forget, if a person truly understands this religion they would necessarily need to also believe that they do not deserve any of it and that they actually deserve to be damned.

Where the problem lies is that many theists mistakenly believe that if they have accepted Christ as their savior then they have demonstrated that they actually merit eternal life.

But do they not see the problem with this?

If they are personally responsible for their own redemption then this makes Jesus as their sacrificial lamb totally unnecessary.

So yes, they might see the things you mention as a valid reason to want to believe in this religion. But to think that those reasons actually make sense ultimately requires that they actually do not understand the religion.

So it's really not a matter of what we might want, but rather it's a matter of what actually makes theological sense.

Any Christian who thinks they deserve to go to heaven clearly doesn't understand the religion. They wouldn't need Jesus if they deserve to go to heaven.

The only way this religion can be made to make sense is if the theists who believe in it also believe that they deserve to be damned. If they don't believe this, then they clearly do not understand the religion.

So if they don't understand the religion does it really matter what they might think they would like to believe?

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 3 by OnceConvinced]

That's the thing. Christianity is all about getting to the next world. It's not about doing what we are supposed to be doing here.
Why would they want to 'go to heaven' anyway? God is there just like he is here. If they wanted a relationship with God now is there chance to show him that. No. Instead they latch onto a religion that convinced them they can have a relationship with God and not have to deal with him. The idea of being free from the laws appeals to them. Essentially that simply means free from God.

Go to heaven? That's the last place they want to go. They'd be miserable there.

Truth ills they don't know where they are going. They are following a very questionable entity into eternity. The one called Jesus even says:
I go my way and no one asks me where I am going? What-is-he-trying-to-say? He's trying to say something. Where in the hell is he going? That's not vulgar speech. I mean just that.

Jesus is God? He is nothing like God.
But there is one who he is just like. He is just like HaSatan. If not him then he was sent by him. Wake up Christians! Jesus has accomplished one thing:. He got you to disobey God. The only way he could accomplish that was to convince you that listening to him is God's will.

Yeah.... A voice from heaven said this is my son. A voice. Whose voice? You don't know. But it came from heaven. Heaven is a glorious sounding word therefore it's God's voice. BOTTOM LINE:. You only know WHAT you heard. Not WHO you heard.
But it's easy to figure out whose voice it is. If it was God you would be preparing for Rosh Hashana. The feast of Trumpets. Feast if Trumpets? What's that you ask ? If you don't know what it is then that voice from heaven that you obey isnt the voice of God.

Didn't you year Jesus tell you how he has got you to follow him? In his parable of the sheep he tells you how the sheep won't follow a stranger's voice. But they will the familiar voice if their master.
A stranger can lead the sheep away if they can fool the sheep into thinking the voice they hear us the owner of the sheep. Hey...don't be mad at Satan. He didn't lie to you. He said 'a voice' from heaven. It was you who wanted it to be God's voice. Because in your heart you don't want to obey God. That is why you Christians can say that IT IS GODS VOICE when in reality it doesn't say that at all. Go ahead...follow that voice. Rather follow your hearts desire. Because that is all it is. Don't blame Satan. He obeys God. He is just doing his job. Don't ever speak Ill of Satan. You hate him without a cause. And no one gets to the father but through him. That's right. No one can prove their loyalty to God unless they go right through Satan. Resisting him at every turn. You really want Jesus to say he knows you? I'd rethink that. Jesus - he lives forever huh? Now who could that be? Because he lives forever you equate that to Godly? I only know one entity who God has living forever . HaSatann. Satan. The Serpent. The adversary. Or whatever name he decides to go by.
What spirit decended that day day at the Jordan river? It doesn't say what kind of spirit. But it sounds so heavenly when you read his it descended like a dove. You hear the word dove and you equate that with peace. What's 'like' a dove mean? It means they want to use words that you can interpret in your own ear. It sure is worded beautifully . But I know what it did. And from it's works we can identify it. Better still listen to your Lord Jesus:. He didn't come to bring peace but a sword. The Messiah would never ever say that.

Sadly for you Christians you will have no way out if your mess. You werent tricked by satan. You just latched on to a religion that gives you what your hearts desire. For if you desired a relationship with God you'd tell Jesus to go to hell. Literally. Yes he is lord alright. We know who he is Lord over. It hasn't been hidden from you. You've been told on several occasions who obeys him. The unclean spirits.
Wake up and save your children before it's too late. Because once the shepherd leads out the the gate will be shut. And when you realize it wasn't your owners voice you were following it will be too late.

[Divine Insight]

The idea of being free from the laws appeals to them.

You've got to be kidding. Christians have to behave themselves far better than those who worship this religion before Christ.

Before Christ you were not only permitted to do a lot of nasty things, like stoning people to death that you are convinced are sinners or don't believe in the same God you believe in, but you are actually commanded to do this.

In the OT not only could you take revenge on someone, but you were commanded to do so. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. And take no pity on them.

Jesus rebuked all of that.

So Christians are actually under far more stringent commandments from Jesus than the Jews are from Yahweh.

Christians must turn the other cheek and love their enemies.

Jews can punch people in the face and kill their enemies in the name of God.

So actually it's the Jews who are basically "lawless" precisely because they can use their God as an excuse to basically get away with murder. They don't want to become Christians because then they would need to start behaving themselves in harmony with the teachings of Christ.

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 6 by Divine Insight]

Ha!

Because YOU say you stoning someone is bad therefore His is wrong.

No...you've got to be kidding. You don't have to like what God tells you to do. But to say his ways are 'nasty'. Boy you are something else.

But you prove a point I always stand by:. And that is Christians only adhere to laws THEY AGREE with . If they don't understand it they want no part of it.

Christians want His to think like them. To be like them. Heeey!! Whaddya know they dragged his down to their level and out him in flesh. They call him Jesus . The messianics call him Yeshya. I guess by calling him by his Hebrew name it makes him more authentic. They also wear tallit . They want to be called Jews and look like a Jew. But they are imposters

Calling the Jews lawless. That's a joke.

Everything you said can be summed up much better. Why not say that the Gid who you pretend to worship is bit as good as your. That you know better than your creator. Because that is exactly what you are saying. You can't take it back. You are in a sorry pathetic state. Because the His you criticize is the God of Israel. And you sealed your fate by criticizing him. Because you worship his creation and he can destroy his creation.
And whether you like it or not Christianity depends on the Hebrew Scriptures to be true. And the God in the Hebrew Scriptures is your creator. And look how you insult.

You are in a sorry state. I don't feel sorry for you.

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 6 by Divine Insight]

Ha!

Because YOU say you stoning someone is bad therefore His is wrong.

No...you've got to be kidding. You don't have to like what God tells you to do. But to say his ways are 'nasty'. Boy you are something else.

But you prove a point I always stand by:. And that is Christians only adhere to laws THEY AGREE with . If they don't understand it they want no part of it.

Christians want His to think like them. To be like them. Heeey!! Whaddya know they dragged his down to their level and out him in flesh. They call him Jesus . The messianics call him Yeshya. I guess by calling him by his Hebrew name it makes him more authentic. They also wear tallit . They want to be called Jews and look like a Jew. But they are imposters

Calling the Jews lawless. That's a joke.

Everything you said can be summed up much better. Why not say that the Gid who you pretend to worship is bit as good as your. That you know better than your creator. Because that is exactly what you are saying. You can't take it back. You are in a sorry pathetic state. Because the His you criticize is the God of Israel. And you sealed your fate by criticizing him. Because you worship his creation and he can destroy his creation.
And whether you like it or not Christianity depends on the Hebrew Scriptures to be true. And the God in the Hebrew Scriptures is your creator. And look how you insult.

You are in a sorry state. I don't feel sorry for you.

[otseng]

You are in a sorry pathetic state.

You are in a sorry state. I don't feel sorry for you.

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[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 5 by Avoice]

Assuming that what you are saying is accurate, let me ask you this. Was it Jesus who led people away from God and His law? OR was it Paul, Saul of Tarsus. Seems to me that from the Gospels Jesus advocated devotion to the Father, (YHVH) and His Law.

Jesus simply advocated interior observance, not just outward. He said he was not here to abolish the law, and in fact like Hillel, considered the Golden Rule the essence of the Law and the Prophets, that and love of God and Neighbor.

In Mark, Jesus affirms Sh'ma.

Don't you think it likely, even probable that the Jesus of history, ( Yahshua of Nazareth as opposed to Paul's "Christ") was a devout Jew, who ran afoul of the Romans and their Temple allies?