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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:04 pm
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The U.S. Constitution protects all religions

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Most religious folk do no view the U.S. Constitution to be the protector of all the religions, and/or other non-violent beliefs. For the most part they feel their religion (and their God) is superior to our government even though without our Constitution’s Freedom of Religion clause, all would be chaos among the many different faiths.

God, Country, fellow man should be: America, God, fellow man.
Would anyone argue that our Constitution, mimicked by many nations of the world, would not protect the rights of its citizens from others who worship differently (or who don’t worship at all)?

In other words, would anyone deny that it is the U.S. Constitution that keeps religions from tearing one another apart in America?

Please refrain from arguing that the Freedom of Religion clause is to keep the government’s nose out of religion’s business (for those who feel that way, I refer you to view Jefferson-Madison correspondence).

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:26 pm
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Re: The U.S. Constitution protects all religions

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2Dbunk wrote:

Most religious folk do no view the U.S. Constitution to be the protector of all the religions, and/or other non-violent beliefs.


Please support this claim.

Virtually everyone I have met in real life and (I think) every American theist currently posting on this board holds that the U.S Constitution protects all religious beliefs that do not put people in danger. I find your assessment of “religious folks” to have no basis in fact.

2Dbunk wrote:

Would anyone argue that our Constitution, mimicked by many nations of the world, would not protect the rights of its citizens from others who worship differently (or who don’t worship at all)?


The wording of this sentence is hard to follow, so I will be as direct as possible: The Constitution provides protection for all religious beliefs and practices that do not endanger anyone, and protects the right to refrain from all religious beliefs and practices. The overwhelming majority of Christian on this site and in the country on the whole support this being a part of the Constitution. Personally, I think that the five rights protected in the 1st Amendment make America’s most important contribution to modern political thought.

2Dbunk wrote:

In other words, would anyone deny that it is the U.S. Constitution that keeps religions from tearing one another apart in America?


Yes, I absolutely deny that and I consider it a ridiculous assertion.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:49 pm
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Re: The U.S. Constitution protects all religions

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2Dbunk wrote:



...would anyone deny that it is the U.S. Constitution that keeps religions from tearing one another apart in America?
Emphasis MINE
    You haven't clarified what you mean by "tearing one another apart".* If you mean it's members engaging in criminal activities such as the incitement to violence against non members then I suppose America has laws that protect its citizens against such actions, so I would reject this suggestion (if that is what is meant).

    If you are suggesting there is some kind of religious unity that is maintained between all the different faiths in America because of the US Constitution, a unity which would in its absence disintigrate, I think this is a ridiculous suggestion that would need to be demonstrated.
* perhaps you can clarify what you mean by "tearing one another apart".

Would anyone argue that our Constitution, mimicked by many nations of the world, would not protect the rights of its citizens from others who worship differently (or who don’t worship at all)?

    Most constitutions in democratic societies do indeed propound the rights of its citizens to freely practise (or refrain from practising) the religion of their choice without fear if reprisal or violence (if that is what you mean), although Jehovah's Witnesses in RUSSIA ( that claims to guarantee such rights) are finding this not to be the case.


The Protection of Religion
    I am far from a expert on US constitutional law, and I am not American but my understanding is their law doesn't actively protect any religion it simply refrains from making any laws regarding religious practice. As such it, in theory "protects" the rights of its citizens to practise their religion as they choose without interference from the State.





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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=839832#839832

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:31 pm
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Re: The U.S. Constitution protects all religions

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bjs wrote:

2Dbunk wrote:

Most religious folk do no view the U.S. Constitution to be the protector of all the religions, and/or other non-violent beliefs.


Please support this claim.


I will re-phrase: Too many religious folk do not view the U.S. Constitution to be the ultimate protector of all the religions, and/or other non-violent beliefs.

Quote:
Virtually everyone I have met in real life and (I think) every American theist currently posting on this board holds that the U.S Constitution protects all religious beliefs that do not put people in danger. I find your assessment of “religious folks” to have no basis in fact.


I know that there are Christians who put God before country. Are you one of them?

2Dbunk wrote:

In other words, would anyone deny that it is the U.S. Constitution that keeps religions from tearing one another apart in America?


Then you need to review your "World History" that is replete with internecine conflicts in most countries prior to America's Constitution. The dominant religion in any one of these countries combined with the governing authority to discourage by varying means to suppress or destroy other lesser religions. America broke away from that vicious double-edged system of governance.

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Yes, I absolutely deny that and I consider it a ridiculous assertion.


Again, review your history.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:01 pm
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Re: The U.S. Constitution protects all religions

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JehovahsWitness wrote:

2Dbunk wrote:



...would anyone deny that it is the U.S. Constitution that keeps religions from tearing one another apart in America?
Emphasis MINE
    You haven't clarified what you mean by "tearing one another apart".* If you mean it's members engaging in criminal activities such as the incitement to violence against non members then I suppose America has laws that protect its citizens against such actions, so I would reject this suggestion (if that is what is meant).


Probably I should have said persecution instead of tearing apart, but in too many cases in history it's the same meaning.

Quote:
If you are suggesting there is some kind of religious unity that is maintained between all the different faiths in America because of the US Constitution, a unity which would in its absence disintigrate, I think this is a ridiculous suggestion that would need to be demonstrated.* perhaps you can clarify what you mean by "tearing one another apart".


I think it is naïve to believe my assertion to be "ridiculous." All one needs to do is review the histories of the nations prior tp 1787 for examples of how the different religions treated one another.


Quote:
list]Most constitutions in democratic societies do indeed propound the rights of its citizens to freely practise (or refrain from practising) the religion of their choice without fear if reprisal or violence (if that is what you mean), although Jehovah's Witnesses in RUSSIA ( that claims to guarantee such rights) are finding this not to be the case.[/list]


YES, and those nations you speak of eventually revised their constitutions to include freedom of religion (that's EXACTLY what I mean).

Quote:
The Protection of Religion
    I am far from a expert on US constitutional law, and I am not American but my understanding is their law doesn't actively protect any religion it simply refrains from making any laws regarding religious practice. As such it, in theory "protects" the rights of its citizens to practise their religion as they choose without interference from the State.


Of course the U.S. is a protector of any violence shown to any one of the many religions. It is now a "hate crime" to desecrate another's church or cemetery in the United States.

Your last sentence is what I warned against in the OP. Please review correspondence between Madison and Jefferson, the authors of the Constitution's Freedom of Religion clause. It is not a one way wall of separation as many Christian fundamentalists claim -- but like ALL walls, it separates in both directions!

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:42 pm
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Re: The U.S. Constitution protects all religions

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2Dbunk wrote:


Probably I should have said persecution instead of tearing apart,


Ok so your question is

Quote:

..would anyone deny that it is the U.S. Constitution that keeps religions from tearing one another apart persecuting each other in America?



Hmmm, if there was no Constitution, would there be more persecution of one religion against another?
    Probably yes.


Would they all ultimately wipe each other out of existence?
    Probably no.


Quote:
So.... was there a greater point you wanted to make based on that? That the US Constitution is bad and should be abolished? That religion is barbaric and should be abolished? That abolishment is abolishing and should be abolished?....

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:42 pm
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Re: The U.S. Constitution protects all religions

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JehovahsWitness wrote:

2Dbunk wrote:


Probably I should have said persecution instead of tearing apart,


Ok so your question is

Quote:

..would anyone deny that it is the U.S. Constitution that keeps religions from tearing one another apart persecuting each other in America?



Hmmm, if there was no Constitution, would there be more persecution of one religion against another?
    Probably yes.


More than probably!


Quote:
Would they all ultimately wipe each other out of existence?
    Probably no.


Of course not -- there would remain one dominant religion, to uphold and validate the governing body (usually a monarchy). Other religions would be persecuted or suppressed. At least that is the way most of our founding fathers designed to avoid.

Quote:
So.... was there a greater point you wanted to make based on that? That the US Constitution is bad and should be abolished? That religion is barbaric and should be abolished? That abolishment is abolishing and should be abolished?....
[/quote]

I think you are missing the point. Of course the US Constitution should not be abolished; religion is to every person what it is and as such could not be abolished -- in accordance WITH the Constitution. In fact, I have not mentioned the word "abolish," sir.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:20 pm
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Re: The U.S. Constitution protects all religions

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2Dbunk wrote:

Of course not -- there would remain one dominant religion, to uphold and validate the governing body (usually a monarchy). Other religions would be persecuted or suppressed. At least that is the way most of our founding fathers designed to avoid.

Exactly. The fusion of government and religion is what happened in the Roman empire when it made use of (and perhaps made) Christianity as a means of controlling the masses.

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