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marco
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:18 am  Why does Jesus not make himself obvious today? Reply with quote

Jesus promised to be with us till the end of the world. Many claim they speak to him and he offers guidance. But the lessons they learn seem to be no more substantial than the footnotes in some good advice book and less penetrating than a university course in moral philosophy. No more miracles; no more public displays. It's as if he really did die with no resurrection.


Would we expect a real Jesus to offer clear evidence of himself today?


Even if there is no Jesus around, is it still a good, comforting thing for some to believe he is?

Are there any dangers in believing Christ is around today?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:33 pm
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JJ50 wrote:

There is a lot that is very wrong in the Bible, downright evil in fact!



This is true but we must remember that what seems evil to us might be the height of holiness to Jehovah. Some people today might think that having some kids slaughtered because they poked fun at a holy man is a little extreme, but of course in God's eyes the kids were just molecules of mud, to be returned to the earth when God chose, so there was nothing harsh in Jehovah's sentence.

But we are enquiring about Jesus and his mysterious silence. One possibility is that preparing a place took more toil than Jesus anticipated. He thought he'd be back before his pals had time to go for lunch, but they've been dead now two millennia. Had he had said: "If you wait a few thousand years, I'll be back for your bones" they might have frowned. But in John we hear:

" My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”

The number of rooms in heaven doesn't relate to Christ's statement about going and preparing. For example if God's house had only one bedroom and one bathroom, Christ could still have gone to prepare a place, perhaps in the garage. The number of rooms is a boastful irrelevance.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:32 pm
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JJ50 wrote:

There is a lot that is very wrong in the Bible, downright evil in fact!


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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:00 pm
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JJ50 wrote:

There is a lot that is very wrong in the Bible, downright evil in fact!


Yes. From Genesis to Revelation we have examples of murder, rape, genocide, and torture not to mention ignorance and superstition. Much of it is commanded by the Bible god. Christian apologists today keep busy trying to convince us it is all true and all justified.

Now, I realize that both history and mythology is full of violence. However, we should see that violence for the horror it is and not worship it.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:16 pm
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JehovahsWitness wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

He will. But you might not like it when he does.




JW


Has anyone who has flown above the clouds seen anything like this picture?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:53 am
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2Dbunk wrote:

Has anyone who has flown above the clouds seen anything like this picture?



The theology behind the picture comes not from a specific place but from the imagination of man. Our paintings of sorrowing mother holding her dead son; infant Jesus in the humblest of birthplaces; David triumphant with Goliath's head; God touching Adam's finger or even St.Sebastian pierced with arrows that inspired Yukio Mishima …. these are the Christian reply to Orpheus, Narcissus, Endymion, Perseus or the wicked Tantalus.

So the Jesus we hear of today - a church near me shouts from its notice board JESUS SAVES - is a construct of human dreams, hopes and paper wishes. Left there I can see nothing wrong; it supports and gives joy. In the cold corridors of truth and reason, Jesus today is just and empty jacket, discarded vestments. Sad and true.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:41 am
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2Dbunk wrote:

JehovahsWitness wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

He will. But you might not like it when he does.




JW


Has anyone who has flown above the clouds seen anything like this picture?



Give it time my friend, give it time.


JW


RELATED POSTS

Quote:


What can we say to those that say Christ never returned as promised?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=978058#978058

What does the bible mean when it says that "every eye will see" Jesus?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=874750#874750

Will God really literally kill people?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=942565#942565





Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:02 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 27: Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:58 am
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Continued from to post #26 by JehovahsWitness

Quote:
MATTHEW

“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him [...] “Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. These will depart into everlasting cutting-off- Mat 25: 31-32, 41, 46



NOTE: Christ's "return" is not to be confused with his "presence" (parousia) spoken of in Matther 24 verse 3, which began in 1914.



RELATED POSTS

Quote:

Did Jesus indicate that his first century disciples would see him returned in Kingdom power? (Mark 9:1; Matthew 16: 27, 28; Luke 9: 27)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=752172#752172

But did not Jesus say (in Matthew 16 verse 27) that he would "repay everyone" in the lifetime of any of his listeners?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=836624#836624

What does the bible mean when it says that "every eye will see" Jesus?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=874750#874750

What can we say to those that say Christ never returned as promised?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=978058#978058

Will God really literally kill people?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=942565#942565




LEARN MORE

Bible Prophecies fulfilled
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g200711/bible-fulfilled-prophecy/



Quote:
Go to other posts related to...

MESSIANIC PROPHECY, LAST DAYS and ...THE SECOND COMING *
*The Return of Christ


Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:47 am; edited 4 times in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 28: Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:16 am
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JehovahsWitness wrote:


Christ's return is not to be confused with his presence (parousia) spoken of in Matther 24 verse 3, which began in 1914.



It is surprising that the colossal absurdity of this statement is not shatteringly obvious. Jesus started to move a little in his sleep in 1914 while gas was filling trenches and millions were being killed. Did he survive? Since then he's gone back to sleep. I thank fate that my boyhood was not afflicted by such religious absurdities and yet there must be children in the world today who are told such theological nonsense about the year 1914. It is very sad. Do they then go on to learn about Pythagoras?


The OP asks why Jesus does nothing today but I suppose there are some who think he's writing European history. The people in the church near me think he's saving. Perhaps for a rainy day?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 29: Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:28 am
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[Replying to post 28 by marco] The following are all faith statements I have no proof to offer beyond my faith in the bible




WHAT IS THE PAROUSIA?
    Parousia is a Greek word and basically means "presence" and refers to the period when Christ Jesus begins ruling invisibly in heaven, in the long prayed for kingdom ("The kingdom come, thy will be done..."). He does not return onto the planet earth to wander about invisible to humans, but begins to exercise his power from his elevated position as a mighty spirit being, at the right hand of God. This period of time leads directly up to The Great Tribulation and Armageddon, when God (through his appointed king, Jesus) kills off all wicked people and ends human rulership forever. This period is also referred to as "The Last Days", "End Times" and was predicted to stand out in human history because of a number of global phenonema. These features would not be unique in themselves but would, by their scale, intensity, multiplicity and impact clearly identify the time to faithful believers. The majority of mankind, although cognisent of the ariculadities of the times, remain totally ignorant of its significance.

    * Although Jesus may well have actually spoken his native Aramaic or Hebrew it is reasonable to assume the Christian writers used the closest Greek equivalent for the actual words uttered.

For a more on the "The Last Days/end times" (aka "parousia"/Christ's presence) see link below.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=978890#978890



Quote:
NOTE: "Christ's Presence" (parousia) which began in 1914, is not to be confused with Christ's "return" (or second coming) which is the time he manifests himself clearly in Kingdom power to kill off the wicked and reward the faithful.



Quote:
Go to other posts related to...

ARMAGEDDON, LAST DAYS and ...JESUS SECOND COMING


Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:02 am; edited 13 times in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 30: Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:41 am
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Continued from post # 29 above by JehovahsWitness The following are all faith statements I have no proof to offer beyond my understanding of the bible



THE LAST DAYS

Quote:
1. How do you define "the last days"?

The "last days" (also refered to as "The End times" or "The Lord's day", "the parousia" ...) can be defined as the period of time that leads directly into the Great tribulation and the destruction of the present world system of things at the battle of Armageddon).

2. When do you think "the last days" officially started? October 1914

Considering the name "the last days", should one not expect the last days to be... a few days?

No, the word "day(s)" don't have to be taken literal. We sometimes use the word to describe a "period of time" eg "In my grandfathers day they didn't have computers"

3. How would you distinguish the last days form any other period in human history?

Jesus (and other bible writers, notably Daniel, Isaiah, the Apostles Paul and The Apostle John's Revelation ...) outlined a composite sign comprising of various elements, few of which are in themselves are unique but like lines in a finger print together build a unique picture of a particular time in human history; that time is now.

What exactly happened that made you think "ok it's officially the last days"? Was it a specific war? A specific disaster? A specific president?

Bible chronology (notably the Prophet Daniels prophecy of the "times" in Daniel chapter 4 ) pointed to the 20th century, the First World War confirmed the last days (aka the parousia aka "Christ's presence" had began!

4. How long a period do you expect "the last days" to last? For one biblical "generation"


5. Will it be in this our 21st century? Yes, certainly we believe so. Although, Jesus said no-one would be able to pinpoint the exact day and hour, bible chronology, and and evident fulfilment of relevant biblical prophecy (see above) gives us every reason to believe end of this world system is imminent.
Quote:

What is the difference between "The Last days" and Christ's Second Coming?

The " last days" are the extended period of time when Christ prepares the faithful for an entirely new world order. It is also the period when, by means of a worldwide preaching campaign conducted by Jehovahs Witnesses, he also warns mankind of coming events. The Second Coming is the cataclysmic event when Jesus and his angelic army 1) judges mankind 2) kills off all unworthy of continued existence. (see artist's impression )




FURTHER READING:

Are We Living in “the Last Days”?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20060915/Are-We-Really-Living-in-t...

What Does Bible Chronology Indicate About the Year 1914?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/daniel-4-bible-chronology-1914/


RELATED POSTS

Quote:


What is the generation Jesus said would see the end of the present system of things?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=775061#775061

Do all references to "the last days" or "the end" in scripture refer to the last days of the entire world system of things?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=808997#808997

Is it possible to pinpoint the exact DATE this present system will be destroyed?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=891423#891423

If Christ began ruling in 1914 why was it not by an improvement in world conditions?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=978897#978897





Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:36 am; edited 15 times in total

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